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Topic: Next level Bitcoin stress test -- June 29-30 13:00 GMT 2015 - page 2. (Read 16077 times)

legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
So EU is light years ahead of you. Go figure...
Yeah, and the EU is half the size of the USA...

EDIT: You can get cable practically everywhere and fibre in towns as small as 1500 people.
How about outside those towns?
For example, where there's one hour per hectometre.


I thought I'd point out, the EU is not half the size of the US.
The EU outnumbers the USA by nearly 200 million.

EU Population: ~503 Million est.
USA Populaiton: ~318.9 Million est.
I was referring to land mass, not population.
Your information means the EU is 4 times as dense as the US, so easier to build up infrastructure for...
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
So EU is light years ahead of you. Go figure...
Yeah, and the EU is half the size of the USA...

EDIT: You can get cable practically everywhere and fibre in towns as small as 1500 people.
How about outside those towns?
For example, where there's one hour per hectometre.


I thought I'd point out, the EU is not half the size of the US.
The EU outnumbers the USA by nearly 200 million.

EU Population: ~503 Million est.
USA Populaiton: ~318.9 Million est.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
Is there a way to relabel Lucko from "Hero Member" to "Clueless Idiot"? <.<

This is by design from the beginning.  If you don't like the way bitcoin is designed, you should use something else.  There is no way to change it.  There is no way to force anyone running a full node to mine or relay any specific transaction.
No you need to change it to do that... If you don't it will not reject valid transaction. You need to add so-called antispam to it and say this in a valid translation but it is not valid for me. And when a big pools and nodes start doing this and that is blocking big wallets providers it is a big problem if they don't tell you what new rules are... this is practically unannounced a fork...

No, this is what Bitcoin has always done by design and also by default since 0.3.19 released by Satoshi.
Policy is not a network fork in any sense.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
LOL!  Do you use Wintendo or some other virus hive?  Don't use your toys for storing money.  I run bitcoind on a Linux computer, which I can access over ssh from anywhere.
And that is really user friendlily. Command line bitcoin... Not enough of a geek if there is a better way. I didn't even like that whan I had to do that for NMC. More secure it is less user friendly it is. I decided not to use it for money and I don't care if it gets hacked. Nice dedicated windows machine with antivirus TeamViwer... And 99.9% will think the way I do. Why should I put myself in all that trouble if there is a easier way?
Any node can make up its of mind about what spam is, and have the right to decide it.  There are some default filters, and some of them can even be adjusted by command line options.  If you don't like it, use a bank.  If you use an SPV wallet,  the random full node it talks to will decide for you if the transaction you are about to send, or one you expect to receive, is spam or not.  Users won't know what the policy of an individual full node is.  The average policy of the network will be estimated by full nodes, and translated into fee and priority estimates.  If you run a full node, you will know what is required to get a transaction confirmed with good probability within a given number of blocks.  If you send from an SPV wallet, you must trust the defaults and the full node you are talking to.
If you don't understand why the idea any node can make up its mined is dangers I can't help you. Normal user will think that if something works one day it will work the next.
This is by design from the beginning.  If you don't like the way bitcoin is designed, you should use something else.  There is no way to change it.  There is no way to force anyone running a full node to mine or relay any specific transaction.
No you need to change it to do that... If you don't it will not reject valid transaction. You need to add so-called antispam to it and say this in a valid translation but it is not valid for me. And when a big pools and nodes start doing this and that is blocking big wallets providers it is a big problem if they don't tell you what new rules are... this is practically unannounced a fork...
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
Not very smart of you.
1. You can be tricked into believing a transaction has been confirmed when it is not.
2. You leak information about which addresses belongs to you to full nodes you are talking to.
Well it is much less of a problem then getting hacked and loss all your coins on core. And you can't use it without a computer. Unless you use TeamViwer and get hacked that way... It must have some backdore since even with 2FA someone connected to it and downloaded wallet.dat for 2 times. So I really don't see how you can use core in any practical way...
LOL!  Do you use Wintendo or some other virus hive?  Don't use your toys for storing money.  I run bitcoind on a Linux computer, which I can access over ssh from anywhere.

Any node can make up its of mind about what spam is, and have the right to decide it.  There are some default filters, and some of them can even be adjusted by command line options.  If you don't like it, use a bank.  If you use an SPV wallet,  the random full node it talks to will decide for you if the transaction you are about to send, or one you expect to receive, is spam or not.  Users won't know what the policy of an individual full node is.  The average policy of the network will be estimated by full nodes, and translated into fee and priority estimates.  If you run a full node, you will know what is required to get a transaction confirmed with good probability within a given number of blocks.  If you send from an SPV wallet, you must trust the defaults and the full node you are talking to.
If you don't understand why the idea any node can make up its mined is dangers I can't help you. Normal user will think that if something works one day it will work the next.
This is by design from the beginning.  If you don't like the way bitcoin is designed, you should use something else.  There is no way to change it.  There is no way to force anyone running a full node to mine or relay any specific transaction.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
Yes but if you would read some more you would see that some additional rules were added in last days by some big pools and also big nodes. And it is a big problem for some services like BitGo...

Why is bitgo having a problem?  I heard that some pools had added measures to ignore tranasctions based on a rule intended to identify the "stress test" spam computers.  Is bitgo getting caught in that filter?  Even if they were, other pools would mine their tx.  Is the problem that bitgo isn't paying sufficient fees to be heard in the sea of spam?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
Not very smart of you.
1. You can be tricked into believing a transaction has been confirmed when it is not.
2. You leak information about which addresses belongs to you to full nodes you are talking to.
Well it is much less of a problem then getting hacked and loss all your coins on core. And you can't use it without a computer. Unless you use TeamViwer and get hacked that way... It must have some backdore since even with 2FA someone connected to it and downloaded wallet.dat for 2 times. So I really don't see how you can use core in any practical way...

It used to run fine on N900, but the blocks are too large now.  You statement will be true in the future as well if the block size is increased.
It is not safe. Still just a core. And you need 20GB and Trezor is missing... And I'm sure it is not an app but something you need to compile... So not for normal user... Battery life?

Any node can make up its of mind about what spam is, and have the right to decide it.  There are some default filters, and some of them can even be adjusted by command line options.  If you don't like it, use a bank.  If you use an SPV wallet,  the random full node it talks to will decide for you if the transaction you are about to send, or one you expect to receive, is spam or not.  Users won't know what the policy of an individual full node is.  The average policy of the network will be estimated by full nodes, and translated into fee and priority estimates.  If you run a full node, you will know what is required to get a transaction confirmed with good probability within a given number of blocks.  If you send from an SPV wallet, you must trust the defaults and the full node you are talking to.
If you don't understand why the idea any node can make up its mined is dangers I can't help you. Normal user will think that if something works one day it will work the next. Even BitGo has problems today(service that pool is using). If that is not a problem I don't know what is... And running full node doesn't give me any idea what fee should be or rules on the network... And it is a security risk if you have funds on it...

Remember the last soft fork (BIP66)?  We had a six block chain split after the fork because F2Pool didn't take the time to verify the blocks it got before building upon them.  Why didn't they verify?  Because it takes time to verify a 1 MB block.  Why was this a problem?  Because F2Pool announced support for the soft fork, while actually they didn't.  Now try with a hard fork to even larger blocks.
Yes 1 hour and problem more or less solved. And I really don't see how big blocks will be any different. I think they learn the lessen and will be checking when next fork happens... And it was not like they didn't verify. There was a bug in a code they use. As sone as they got a block they start hashing the next one and checking one they got. But for some reason when they couldn't verify it they didn't reject it but start building empty blocks on it(I can explain you in full if you are interested why empty blocks).
What's the transaction fee for it? I think you guys need to clarify all these things from the very beginning ,so it doesn't pose a problem for us. Also i found last test rather interesting. This one was okayish,
It is not a fee problem. It is getting rejected since pool(not BTC mining pool but pays in BTC) is sending to more then 200 addresses. It worked yesterday but now it doesn't. Well to got confirmed after more then 24 hours... So I don't like this soft antispam(what the f**k is spam hire anyway???) fork that doesn't work as it should and it was not announced so we would know how to make transactions that will not be spam according to it. Changing rules like that can kill bitcoin not 20MB blocks.
What are you talking about? There was no soft-fork for antispam rules. The soft-fork was for BIP66 which has to do with transaction signatures. Also, a fork cannot be unannounced because the fork only happens when miners mine blocks for it, which can only happen with a code change. They won't change their code for no reason, so fork had to be announced.
I'm calling it soft fork since nodes and some miners have implemented antispam rules that reject valid transactions. And as far as I know it is unannounced.
What antispam rules? I know that Bitcoin Core will drop and not relay dust transactions, but that has been there for a very long time and it must have been announced and discussed to ever have made it into Bitcoin Core.
Yes but if you would read some more you would see that some additional rules were added in last days by some big pools and also big nodes. And it is a big problem for some services like BitGo...
staff
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6793
Just writing some code
What's the transaction fee for it? I think you guys need to clarify all these things from the very beginning ,so it doesn't pose a problem for us. Also i found last test rather interesting. This one was okayish,
It is not a fee problem. It is getting rejected since pool(not BTC mining pool but pays in BTC) is sending to more then 200 addresses. It worked yesterday but now it doesn't. Well to got confirmed after more then 24 hours... So I don't like this soft antispam(what the f**k is spam hire anyway???) fork that doesn't work as it should and it was not announced so we would know how to make transactions that will not be spam according to it. Changing rules like that can kill bitcoin not 20MB blocks.
What are you talking about? There was no soft-fork for antispam rules. The soft-fork was for BIP66 which has to do with transaction signatures. Also, a fork cannot be unannounced because the fork only happens when miners mine blocks for it, which can only happen with a code change. They won't change their code for no reason, so fork had to be announced.
I'm calling it soft fork since nodes and some miners have implemented antispam rules that reject valid transactions. And as far as I know it is unannounced.
What antispam rules? I know that Bitcoin Core will drop and not relay dust transactions, but that has been there for a very long time and it must have been announced and discussed to ever have made it into Bitcoin Core.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
I don't use core for transactions for a long time. Not safe. If there would have connect a Android device with Trezor option I might use my XT node for transactions but since this will probably not happen MyCelium works just fine. It even has integrated BTC to SEPA in it... So why use a node for transactions?
Not very smart of you.
1. You can be tricked into believing a transaction has been confirmed when it is not.
2. You leak information about which addresses belongs to you to full nodes you are talking to.

You can't use it of a phone.
It used to run fine on N900, but the blocks are too large now.  You statement will be true in the future as well if the block size is increased.

And now what is spam? How do you know that? Who give you the right to decide? If you don't like it don't run a node.  Are you a bank? Are we going the way banks are going? And how will users know so they will not be blocked.
Any node can make up its of mind about what spam is, and have the right to decide it.  There are some default filters, and some of them can even be adjusted by command line options.  If you don't like it, use a bank.  If you use an SPV wallet,  the random full node it talks to will decide for you if the transaction you are about to send, or one you expect to receive, is spam or not.  Users won't know what the policy of an individual full node is.  The average policy of the network will be estimated by full nodes, and translated into fee and priority estimates.  If you run a full node, you will know what is required to get a transaction confirmed with good probability within a given number of blocks.  If you send from an SPV wallet, you must trust the defaults and the full node you are talking to.

And just to be sure. There will not be 2 Bitcoins after hard fork. If it happens 25% will change to bigger blocks or will be killed by bitcoins tht are useless or even 51% attacks for sure... So saying there will be 2 and big problems is BS. When first big blocks is mined small chain will die in hours or days... Unless there are more exchanges and wallets on it. Than it might take longer or it might even manage to beat big one since miners might change back to it. But there will never be 2 Bitcoins for a long period time... Just look what happened with LTC and FTC.
Remember the last soft fork (BIP66)?  We had a six block chain split after the fork because F2Pool didn't take the time to verify the blocks it got before building upon them.  Why didn't they verify?  Because it takes time to verify a 1 MB block.  Why was this a problem?  Because F2Pool announced support for the soft fork, while actually they didn't.  Now try with a hard fork to even larger blocks.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
What's the transaction fee for it? I think you guys need to clarify all these things from the very beginning ,so it doesn't pose a problem for us. Also i found last test rather interesting. This one was okayish,
It is not a fee problem. It is getting rejected since pool(not BTC mining pool but pays in BTC) is sending to more then 200 addresses. It worked yesterday but now it doesn't. Well to got confirmed after more then 24 hours... So I don't like this soft antispam(what the f**k is spam hire anyway???) fork that doesn't work as it should and it was not announced so we would know how to make transactions that will not be spam according to it. Changing rules like that can kill bitcoin not 20MB blocks.
What are you talking about? There was no soft-fork for antispam rules. The soft-fork was for BIP66 which has to do with transaction signatures. Also, a fork cannot be unannounced because the fork only happens when miners mine blocks for it, which can only happen with a code change. They won't change their code for no reason, so fork had to be announced.
I'm calling it soft fork since nodes and some miners have implemented antispam rules that reject valid transactions. And as far as I know it is unannounced.
staff
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6793
Just writing some code
What's the transaction fee for it? I think you guys need to clarify all these things from the very beginning ,so it doesn't pose a problem for us. Also i found last test rather interesting. This one was okayish,
It is not a fee problem. It is getting rejected since pool(not BTC mining pool but pays in BTC) is sending to more then 200 addresses. It worked yesterday but now it doesn't. Well to got confirmed after more then 24 hours... So I don't like this soft antispam(what the f**k is spam hire anyway???) fork that doesn't work as it should and it was not announced so we would know how to make transactions that will not be spam according to it. Changing rules like that can kill bitcoin not 20MB blocks.
What are you talking about? There was no soft-fork for antispam rules. The soft-fork was for BIP66 which has to do with transaction signatures. Also, a fork cannot be unannounced because the fork only happens when miners mine blocks for it, which can only happen with a code change. They won't change their code for no reason, so fork had to be announced.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
What's the transaction fee for it? I think you guys need to clarify all these things from the very beginning ,so it doesn't pose a problem for us. Also i found last test rather interesting. This one was okayish,
It is not a fee problem. It is getting rejected since pool(not BTC mining pool but pays in BTC) is sending to more then 200 addresses. It worked yesterday but now it doesn't. Well to got confirmed after more then 24 hours... So I don't like this soft antispam(what the f**k is spam hire anyway???) fork that doesn't work as it should and it was not announced so we would know how to make transactions that will not be spam according to it. Changing rules like that can kill bitcoin not 20MB blocks.

Only if you are miner you need that speed. For normal user you can do that in 5 minutes and you are still more then fine.
If you are a very dedicated user, you may accept that your internet is slow as heck for 50% of the time.  Most won't, and will opt for lower security and less privacy with an SPV wallet instead.  I don't think spam is important enough that we should accept more centralization or forcing lower security upon a lot of users.  As the malicious attacks has demonstrated, there is plenty of room for all the non-spam transactions in 1MB blocks.  If your goal is more spam and lower security and privacy, the answer is larger blocks.  If your goal is to make transactions confirm faster, the answer is better spam filtering.

There is another option, if you insist on a hard fork: Smaller transactions.  Using different crypto algorithms, the size of each transaction can be reduced to about 1/4th of the current size.  This unfortunately come with the cost of higher CPU consumption.  Nothing is free.  With each transaction taking 1/4th of the current size, we can do with a block size of 250k for years to come, allowing even users with metered internet and mobile connections to run full nodes.  Assuming spam filtering, of course.  If you want to abolish spam filtering entirely, then no block size would be large enough, and no personal user will even dream of doing a full blockchain download.
I don't use core for transactions for a long time. Not safe. If there would have connect a Android device with Trezor option I might use my XT node for transactions but since this will probably not happen MyCelium works just fine. It even has integrated BTC to SEPA in it... So why use a node for transactions? You can't use it of a phone. Big problem if you get hacked. Personally I think suggest that you should use node for transaction is really a bad idea unless you are security expert. Most people aren't. And core is far from secure wallet.

And now what is spam? How do you know that? Who give you the right to decide? If you don't like it don't run a node. Are you a bank? Are we going the way banks are going? And how will users know so they will not be blocked. What happens if someone didn't know that rules have changed? Isn't that why we don't like banks?

And as soon as I see on option that will work without increasing block size limit that will happen in less then 1 year I'm OK with 1MB. But there isn't any... even one that are mentioned need bigger blocks in long run so making them bigger now changes noting. Also I see some conflicts of interests in persons that are against it. Like chef scientist of altcoin or working on some alternative payment system that uses BTC. If your payment needs you not to understand something I assure you you will not understand it. And making BTC settlement layer will make altcoins(p2p users) and that system(BTC users) more attractive. Until now I didn't see an argument that is not BS speculation...

We will need bigger blocks and all alternative payment system, sidechains, altcoins and who knows what more but for now we have size... If you have alternative payment system in place when we need to make blocks even bigger grate but there isn't one now.

And just to be sure. There will not be 2 Bitcoins after hard fork. If it happens 25% will change to bigger blocks or will be killed by bitcoins tht are useless or even 51% attacks for sure... So saying there will be 2 and big problems is BS. When first big blocks is mined small chain will die in hours or days... Unless there are more exchanges and wallets on it. Than it might take longer or it might even manage to beat big one since miners might change back to it. But there will never be 2 Bitcoins for a long period time... Just look what happened with LTC and FTC.

Not sure about other states but it is like water or electricity. You will get cable or ADSL or WiFi(EDIT: it might even be fibre) provided by state and you need to only get ISP.

In many of those rural areas of the U.S., people have their own personal well for water out of the ground, so water may be a bad example, unless you are saying that their is some way to dig into the ground and tap directly into some high speed internet reservoir?
Talking about EU. If you have a building permit you will get electricity, water and a chance to use broadband connection. I should use word country not state.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
Not sure about other states but it is like water or electricity. You will get cable or ADSL or WiFi(EDIT: it might even be fibre) provided by state and you need to only get ISP.

In many of those rural areas of the U.S., people have their own personal well for water out of the ground, so water may be a bad example, unless you are saying that their is some way to dig into the ground and tap directly into some high speed internet reservoir?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
So EU is light years ahead of you. Go figure...
Yeah, and the EU is half the size of the USA...

EDIT: You can get cable practically everywhere and fibre in towns as small as 1500 people.
How about outside those towns?
For example, where there's one hour per hectometre.

Not sure about other states but it is like water or electricity. You will get cable or ADSL or WiFi(EDIT: it might even be fibre) provided by state and you need to only get ISP.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
So EU is light years ahead of you. Go figure...
Yeah, and the EU is half the size of the USA...

EDIT: You can get cable practically everywhere and fibre in towns as small as 1500 people.
How about outside those towns?
For example, where there's one hour per hectometre.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
What's the transaction fee for it? I think you guys need to clarify all these things from the very beginning ,so it doesn't pose a problem for us. Also i found last test rather interesting. This one was okayish,
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
Only if you are miner you need that speed. For normal user you can do that in 5 minutes and you are still more then fine.
If you are a very dedicated user, you may accept that your internet is slow as heck for 50% of the time.  Most won't, and will opt for lower security and less privacy with an SPV wallet instead.  I don't think spam is important enough that we should accept more centralization or forcing lower security upon a lot of users.  As the malicious attacks has demonstrated, there is plenty of room for all the non-spam transactions in 1MB blocks.  If your goal is more spam and lower security and privacy, the answer is larger blocks.  If your goal is to make transactions confirm faster, the answer is better spam filtering.

There is another option, if you insist on a hard fork: Smaller transactions.  Using different crypto algorithms, the size of each transaction can be reduced to about 1/4th of the current size.  This unfortunately come with the cost of higher CPU consumption.  Nothing is free.  With each transaction taking 1/4th of the current size, we can do with a block size of 250k for years to come, allowing even users with metered internet and mobile connections to run full nodes.  Assuming spam filtering, of course.  If you want to abolish spam filtering entirely, then no block size would be large enough, and no personal user will even dream of doing a full blockchain download.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
Is internet really that bad in US that this can be an argument that 40 Mbps is so hard to get? But anyway 4Mbps is more then enough at 20 MB

Yes.  Most DSL providers in the US only give 768kbps - 1.5 mbps upstream.  It is very rare for DSL to provide higher than that in the US.  If you're in an area with a cable alternative, you can get maybe 3-5 mbps upstream.  Upstream in the US is EXTREMELY low compared to downstream across the board, normally a 10:1 ratio of downstream to upstream at best.

Fiber is rolling out in VERY few areas in the US, and due to the country's size, you're unlikely to ever see it outside of larger cities, not counting the "test cities" that are lucky enough to get rollouts in smaller towns.

Wireless internet (4G) isn't an option because our data caps are also absurdly low.  While many US wireless services advertise unlimited data, ALL OF THEM are lying.  They ALL throttle you down to 3G (and even 2G) after about 5GB of data on their "unlimited plans".  Want more?  Well Verizon can sell you a 150GB 4G LTE plan...if you want to pay $750/month.  All the other carriers are similarly absurd in their pricing if you want more than 5-10 GB/month over LTE.  Oh, and that's up+down combined.
So EU is light years ahead of you. Go figure... Relay unlimited 4G in my country cost only 20€/month. 100/100 fibre cost only 42€, 10/40 cable is 35€, not sure about DSL but I guess not too expansive. I pay for 10/100 internet 160 channels+ (including premium like HBO), 72 hours look back option and phone line(calls in ISP network for free) less then 55€.

EDIT: You can get cable practically everywhere and fibre in towns as small as 1500 people. EU did invest a lot in internet.

I guess US needs to slow you down for NSA to look at everything...
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1007
Is internet really that bad in US that this can be an argument that 40 Mbps is so hard to get? But anyway 4Mbps is more then enough at 20 MB

Yes.  Most DSL providers in the US only give 768kbps - 1.5 mbps upstream.  It is very rare for DSL to provide higher than that in the US.  If you're in an area with a cable alternative, you can get maybe 3-5 mbps upstream.  Upstream in the US is EXTREMELY low compared to downstream across the board, normally a 10:1 ratio of downstream to upstream at best.

Fiber is rolling out in VERY few areas in the US, and due to the country's size, you're unlikely to ever see it outside of larger cities, not counting the "test cities" that are lucky enough to get rollouts in smaller towns.

Wireless internet (4G) isn't an option because our data caps are also absurdly low.  While many US wireless services advertise unlimited data, ALL OF THEM are lying.  They ALL throttle you down to 3G (and even 2G) after about 5GB of data on their "unlimited plans".  Want more?  Well Verizon can sell you a 150GB 4G LTE plan...if you want to pay $750/month.  All the other carriers are similarly absurd in their pricing if you want more than 5-10 GB/month over LTE.  Oh, and that's up+down combined.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
Bigger blocks would - for one - make these kinds of attacks more expensive. This stress test is only slightly effecting others because OP is burning coins as fees and miners are - as its intended - greedy. If the max blocksize is 2 MB the same attack would have needed 40 BTC instead of 20 BTC[1] to have the same effect.
Why do you assume the price of a transaction – the txfee – will stay the same as the supply of transaction space increases?  This contradicts the law of supply and demand.  The price should go down when the supply increases and normal demand stays the same, and the cost of the attack against 2 MB blocks will be exactly the same as the cost of an attack against 1 MB blocks.
Miners can/will make sure of this. If you send 0 fee transation you can see this. Even if blocks are less then full it will take long time to get conformation. Even low fee takes much longer...

EDIT: And we can make a structure that only 1MB is for low fees. Like 50k that is for hi priority transactions... The rest 19MB or 7MB hi fees... Problem solved...
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