Topic: NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS - page 311. (Read 1053168 times)

@Rofo:

I do have a question regarding the marketplace and the effects it may have on NobleCoin.
Is it known where NobleCoin goes after being sent to the market?  Say I was in the market to buy
some goods from Newegg, is it detrimental to Noblecoin for me to go and buy 1BTC in NobleCoin and
go buy $500 in Gift Cards on the market place due to the discounts there?

Charts here: http://crypto-prices.com/NOBL

If BTC doubles/triples then all of the alt market will flourish from that. People regain trust in cryptocurrency and smell money which leads back to the alt market as well. Alts May not be linked to the BTC price as direct as ltc/doge are though.

If BTC price goes up, will that trend follow for NOBLE? Last time I know it did for LTC and DOGE but I wonder if NOBLE will experience the same rise?

I ask because BTC is poised to probably double/triple in price over the next 4-5 months.

If you believe Say's Law, then the supply automatically creates it's own demand, right?

I've tried them in the past for Doge IIRC and received far less than other pools.

This is one reason why ASIC worries me. Remember the Alt market is massively smaller than BTC when watching this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi2thGzzNSs

Looking at the diagram of merge mining. If someone had a 500kh card and merge mine, does it implies that 500kh will be used for each coin or that 500kh will be divided among each coin? The GPU would need to calculate, say 5 coins, hence i can't see how 500kh each would stand. Another thing what if each coin has different block reward times. 1 coin has 1 block every minute and the other coin 1 block every 2 minutes. Surely then the GPU would have to mine each coin algorithm separately. Hence one wouldn't get 500kh for each coin?

I agree hence why slowing down coin production means less daily coin maintenance to stabilise the price. I have observed many coins where production was slowed down via block halving etc and temporarily the price rises then stabilised at a lower level. It's a mistake, myth, to assume that block halving equal price will double and stay there. Market forces doesn't work based on some algorithm but supply and demand.


There is nothing wrong with having your real name and face (haven't seen it) as all businesses do it via company registration, being in the media spotlight, through annual reports, a fish and chip shop owner working behind the counter, etc. It is those who hide their identify that makes me suspicious. Like those who sell goods on Ebay, etc. You are doing what everyone in the real world do, so there is nothing to be uncomfortable about. Satoshi probably had his/her reason being the first and not knowing how the governments may react, ie assassinate him/her.   Beside more people are now revealing their identity. Those who hide their identity are 99% trying to scam noobies.


We was debating not arguing.


Central banking types do not debate with the population. Neither do politicians. The holders of Noblecoin debating and agreeing the best way forward doesn't implies centralisation but proper accountability through democracy.

As i've said above, it's a mistake, myth, to assume that block halving equal price will double and stay there. Market forces doesn't work based on some algorithm but supply and demand. Consumers are the final arbitrator of value not some algorithm.

The questions of increasing block supply is a tricky proposal. When a company on the stock market raise funding by issuing extra shares, in my country the current holders get first option to buy new shares based on the percentage of their holdings. This protect current shareholders from having their value diluted. Could it work with cryptocurrency? Most probably not as it would be complicated. Looking at BTC, the demand went up and so did the price. When i started this i did a lot of calculations on the best way to start. The conclusion was to mine and trade. Mining during winter as the heat produced by the card kept my living room warm without the use of central heating hence the cost of mining was offset by zero gas bill and mining was profitable, no matter what those mining profitability website says. I didn't have to spent a penny of fiat money into buying BTC. As i said before i do not see why Noble can be converted to fiat and vice versa without involving BTC. If this does happen, and why not since the development of the marketplace is on par with Bitcoin, and ahead of the shitcoins. If the price rises to a point where noobies think like i did, too expensive to buy, then a increase in coin production to stabilised the price by matching the demand does no harm. Increased in coin productions doesn't need to double (opposite of block halving), but something like 5% for a short period of time. This would allow greater adoption rate of Noblecoin, which is good as it will increase demand for Nobel marketplace. In the long term, investors should not fear increasing supply.

Let's suppose any coins reached their max supply. Would miners mine for transaction fees? That would be an interesting situation. I do not think anyone can safely predict what will happen. Do developers increase the max supply? Stick to the original plan? This is like exploding an atomic bomb for the first time, where no one had any idea what would happen. 'oh!, lookie here, doesn't that cloud look like a mushroom'  

Anyhow, i've enjoyed this debate and has added 'food for thoughts'.

Just wanted to welcome Coinium as another pool that has recently joined NobleCoin. Check out their graph section under statistics... very useful.

Hmmm it seems the score was reviewed before we were on mintpal and the recent attention So it should be rated (a lot) higher after the weekend, we "only" lack on the COIN innovation part. However we are innovative on other area's when it comes to setting a standard (transparency) and now with the noble steps we are (again) doing something unique. So we will have to wait after the weekend to see the reviewed score

Regarding supply and demand, I don't think crypto currencies go via normal business rules. At todays market it is easier to compare it with letting kids go loose in a play store with the added benefit that the toys can be traded back. And some toys are just cool until something better comes along. So when that does, just make sure the old cool tool is traded before it is broken.
So currently the speed of creating new toys is super fast, there are lobyists (the pumpers) who will show what is the coolest new toy and will try to get people to buy it.
But as Rofo already stated, the amount of new money pooring into the system is relatively low. So in the end every kid has a few toys to play with and most will break at some point.

Now we all know what happens when we grow up. There will be growing pains, we make new mistakes and in the end find ourselves looking back at stupid decisions. But most of us in the end, will start to realize that buying a genuine product will get us more comfort. And regarding the genuine product, that is why I invested in NobleCoin.

But as for any genuine product, if the message is not clear for the audience, the audience will never see its true value as they do not have the time to do a deep search for the true strength of a product. So when we did get older, the decisions we make are becoming more rational but still rely on easy understanding.

So in my perspective what would be a good change to the way NobleCoin promotes itself, is via promoting its core values and sticking to them. Get the people to understand what the belief is behind NobleCoin.

In my opinion NobleCoin stands for:
Honesty
Open to all who come and talk to us
it positions itself as being in the middle market (slow = being no changer, middle = changing but with care, fast = the flavour of the day)
Helping people and the earth we live on
straigth forward
intelligent
And possibly a few other values which I do not think of right now.

Unfortunatly the values I see are not taken well in the current community as the core values do not automatically trade for value. Although the values should be the value everybody is searching for:)

So despite of all that, the only way to get there is to show yourself (show that NobleCoin is making the right decisions and doing and achieving the goals it sets) This, in the end, will be its true value and most likely an asset which no one can overlook.

There are many people who are capable of doing so as well as many people happy to for a fee. The biggest problem large coins will face in the future is a split community, with half wanting to go one way and half wanting to go another. In that case you might end up seeing coins like BTC-2 or LTC-X11, each with their own network of merchants and supporters who mine or accept it based on personal preferences or market demand.


Same deal here, many people are able to change specifications (the protocol) of coins. The code of coins being worked on is open-source and they are all generally available for viewing on Github. Bitcoin for example: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin


If PoS coins reach that point I doubt many people will want to or vote to change the specifications and potentially reduce the value of their own holdings. The only 'attacks' competing coins or developers can do is make a copy of the code and release their own coin with different algorithms/specifications. When that happens it is up to them to convince people to use their preferred coin.


I feel the centralization argument is slightly skewed, because algorithms and ASICs are being blamed for something that is purely based on money. Centralization exists in BTC and any other coin not because of ASICs or its algorithm, but because someone had the money to buy a large amount of mining equipment. Centralization exists in PoS coins, because someone with money bought majority or large shares at (generally) a very cheap price, now own large amounts of coin, and has the power to double-spend not due to mining power, but because of stake power. Right now any coin is just as centralized as BTC with ASICs can be, because people have spent millions of dollars on GPU farms. The same people will spend millions of dollars on whatever equipment is necessary for whichever coin/algorithm.

The 'cryptocurrency idealist' in me says that if centralization for one coin gets to a point that people are unhappy with it, they will simply turn to a new cryptocurrency, or develop their own, rather than deal with a coin/system they are no longer happy with. What this would do is reduce the value of the centralized coin, weakening the attempts to centralize it due to less money being involved, and help 'de-centralize' it.


I think the kicker is not so much in the value of decentralization, but more in the fact that a pre-determined coin with its 'protocol/rules' can never be truly controlled through 'printing' as much as fiat. I will never be able to 'print' millions of dollars a day extra behind the scenes of NOBL and give it to my buddies, reducing the purchasing power of your own NOBL. The amount is pre-determined, agreed upon by all when they choose to support/mine it, and a coin can be abandoned or 'forked' the second a community member is unhappy with it and feels they can do better.


Every coin is vulnerable to any change only so long as people are willing to support it. That is the beauty. If a 'developer' added a change that was extremely unpopular miners/community members can simply mine a 'fork' of that coin. If a majority of miners/community members wanted a particular specification in a cryptocurrency, they can choose which 'fork'/version to support. Sometimes I feel like Satoshi's original idea against 'centralization' was not so much about mining, but more so about 'centralization of power'. I won't deny we have a good amount of power centralized here being the founders and 'representatives', but if anyone would like to fork NOBL and have it accepted on the marketplace also (NOBL-X11, NOBL-PoS, etc. etc.) and support that version themselves, I am more than happy to oblige.

Cryptocurrency lets everyone involved in coins choose which ones to support, choose which ones to accept and spend, and choose which ones have specifications or characteristics that are acceptable to them personally. There is no 'forced' control. Sure there is loss of value if a 'developer' does something stupid or unpopular to a majority, but the 'central bankers' of cryptocurrency can not force you to use a currency that they have 'centralized control' over.

Due to my lack of technical knowledge, I have some questions regarding the discussions above between between Rofo and The One.

Just like many other coin-devs are doing, Rofo wants to change the algoritm of NobleCoin.

1. My question is; is Rofo the only one in this community who is able to do that from a technical point of view or do others have the capacities ( codes) to be able to do an algoritm-change as well?

2. How is the situation regarding algorith change in Btc? How many have the capacity to do a algorith change in Btc?

3. Regarding the POS coins. Imagine one of the POS coins becomes very succesfull and expensive. Lets say worth a couple of billion. What will happen when someone changes algorith there eventually by changing the inflation rate up, for instance? I guess this will not be healthy for the price of the coin. Is there a possibilty that competing altcoiners can do such a change to kill a coin?

4. People in the crypto business are often idealistic, not happy with governments, banks etc. They feel attracted to gold, silver and don't like fiat money that is printed and inflated everyday. These people hate centralization. But what remains of the decentralization ideal, when the algorith of a crypto currency is in the hands of a view?

5. So, eventually my overall question is; isn't something wrong here? We have a crypto world full of idealistic people, searching for decentralization, trying to get away from overregulating governments, that finally ended in a crypto world that is centralized as well?

When the answer to question 5 is, that I am right ( I hope of course I am wrong), then things are not healthy in cryptoland. Then the ultimate solution for NobleCoin would be to become a coin 100% protected against any possible algoritme change. Because every coin vulnerable to an algorith change will eventually be seen as very weak and centralized.

I am very interested to hear answers from everyone regarding these questions.

There is very little genuine demand in the altcoin market, it is gambling and manipulation. Genuine investment demand is spread between very few coins, especially less than six months old. We are one of a few viable options.


Free markets have no concept of morals or accountability, but I do, especially being one of a few who will put a real name and a face (an uncomfortable target) in this scene, and because I have to be held accountable for any drastic changes that 'don't work out' as people expected. Not for a second do I see the manipulation and pumping in this scene representing any sort of genuine and lasting demand (for most of the coins most of the time).


Then I don't know why we need to be arguing and I apologise if I sound too heated. We're reducing max supply to 5 (from 15) billion, an amount that won't be reached for an odd 7+ years, with a 'slow down' and accumulation pattern more closely following arguably the two most price-wise successful cryptocurrencies to date, LTC & BTC.


There is a lot wrong with this and rigidity is not a major flaw, because the coin itself is not a business. Changing supply, rate of new coins, maximum amounts, etc. completely degrades confidence in what was meant to be pre-determined and guaranteed 'rules' controlling that cryptocurrency. Every time we change these rules, we become more like the current system everyone claims to be wanting to escape. I do not want to feel like the 'central-banking' types that have complete control to change the system on a whim, as it goes against what this was supposed to be all about.

Edit: Let's say you 'invest' in 100,000,000 NOBL coins. Hypothetically, next week we decide to either double the supply or halve the supply. Your investment is now worth either twice as much or half as much. Of course you will vote to cut supply, but what happens if everyone else votes to double it? The fear of that happening again means there will be no real investment; at any point in time your 'investment' could lose 50% of its value due to a simple algorithm tweak pushed and demanded by the community and developers. Trust in the 'rules' should at that point then be zero.

All businesses have plans from day 1 and those plans evolve all the time to meet market forces, those who don't will die. Cryptocurrency is no difference. Many coins are dead because they didn't evolve. That is a major flaw with any coins when they stick to the same plan from day 1. BTC has fallen a lot because demand is not keeping up with the supply of BTC and altcoins. There is nothing wrong with having a debate and changing block rewards, max supply etc, if needed because of the state of the market which is different from day 1.

there are plenty of options alongside NOBL if that is what you want.

It is not about what i want. That is insulting. I'm a business, economic, marketing and computing graduate and MBA post-graduate. All i am trying to do is explain how supply and demand works in the real world and anyone trying to ignore the market forces are fools.

A free market without morals or accountability is still trash.

That another nonsense. The consumers decides how the free market works. Free market has no concept of morals or accountability. The consumers decide what to buy and sell according to their own morals and accountability. The illegal drug market being a perfect example.

we will not be following the latest get-rich-quick specifications and completely removing supply of NOBL this month either. I'm sorry.

No one was suggesting, as far as i know, ''completely removing supply of noble''. I don't know why you said that. There are quite simply to many coins fighting over a small pie. All i am suggesting is max supply reduced to 2bn and reduction in coins per block to SLOW DOWN the supply of coins. That can be debated.

You do realised that, if in 2 years time, the cryptocurrency become more popular and more people are drawn into it and investing, the demand going up, there is nothing wrong with increasing max supply and/or block rewards, if the community agrees to it to meet the new increased demand. Hence the rigidity of coins production is a major flaw in all coins because they do not adapt to the market forces.

Well said. Let's build more demand!

You remove supply, you throw down big BTC buy walls and you've artificially shot up demand with hype and a phoney announcement or two. Cut out supply when you have the money to manipulate demand, as well as the majority of current supply in your own pocket and knowledge of any exit points, and you completely control the market. Cutting supply just makes it so much easier when you can dominate demand. If I had 100BTC on me right now I could put NOBL into the $2,000,000 market cap range in a few days all while announcing nothing but negative news.

That is not what NOBL wants to be. We laid down PoW, specifications and the mining period from day 1. We're not going to suddenly switch again because coins are being shot up through pump and dumps by people who don't give a rats ass about that coin or its future. We've just announced a reduction of total coins from 15 billion to 5 billion, as well as a more aggressive halving period. There are plenty of coins right now that have removed supply completely, there are plenty of options alongside NOBL if that is what you want.

On another note, personally if any system promotes manipulation, corruption and the complete lack of accountability I don't care if it's capitalistic or socialist, it's not worthy of praise. I don't care if it's central banking and fiat yesterday or cryptocurrency today. A free market without morals or accountability is still trash. We said we came here for cryptocurrency long-term. Just as there have been short-term breadwinners due to hyped specifications every month since we've released that are now completely ignored or proven wrong, we will not be following the latest get-rich-quick specifications and completely removing supply of NOBL this month either. I'm sorry.

It may be low so long new money keeps coming in. You made my point perfectly as there are many other coins out there and all require daily coin maintenance. Is there enough money coming in to support all the coins? NO. Again it comes back to supply and demand. Reducing the supply per day now would assure long term survival. The noobs, idiots, sheeps, etc will go running from one coin to another and eventually they will all learn from their mistakes when they get burnt. Eventually they will either leave crypto or select a quality coin.


Rules??? what rules? All that matters is the development and survival of the coin long term. If the few what to manipulate the price (pump) and profit from it then there is nothing you can do about it. They only profit when others decide to jump in after the pump which is their own fault. One must always do their own homework before decide whether to buy coins. You can not babysit them. This is how the stockmarket works.

manipulating price upwards so I could dump on everyone here,

Sorry but you can not manipulate the price upwards by controlling the supply according to the demand. Price goes up when demand IS higher than the supply. Those who pump the price upwards by buying coins and shouting 'pump', 'buy' in the trollbox are the one doing the manipulating.

Prices are determined by the consumers, simple as that.