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Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 1343. (Read 2761645 times)

full member
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NXT.org
Please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here.


If people like you managed to accept that it is a matter of science and not a matter of politics, SURE.
All the more reason this world needs a technocracy more than anything. Too many idiots in power.

Also: no we are going to discuss this as it is also a part of our marketing strategy.
Just saying that something is "green" and "environmentally friendly" is just empty buzzwords without consequences.
The fact is that global warming is currently making millions of people refugees, it is a very pressing matter.
And the other truth is, if Bitcoin becomes the currency of the future it will contribute HUGELY to this. That is a GREAT selling point for NXT compared to just saying "it's green, but hey it doesn't really matter because there is a magical ecosystem on earth that isn't affected regardless of what happens Cheesy"
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
However, putting a cryptocoin in the middle of the political debate over global warming is stupid, unnecessary and almost certainly  counterproductive.  

Energy efficiency over Bitcoin is a valid point.  Saying switching to NXT is going to Save The World is a stretch.  We should not go there.

This is a rational position. We should leave it at that (for now Cool).


The focus needs to be on the "tool" rather than "what it can be used for" - once the tool is in place there will be plenty of time for people to argue their causes.

I see your point, but it's not completely convincing, because tools do have their biases. Nobody is going to design a knife and later on have a big discussion on how best to play tennis with it. Knives are biased towards cutting and slicing stuff by their very design.

I think you get the anology without me explicitly making it clear Wink
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
PGP 9CB0902E
So we have the votes issue. There are a few ideas here and if i'm following the discussion correctly the main two propositions are:
1 Nxt = 1 vote or 1 acc = 1 vote

To me the question between the two is somewhat loaded. Let me explain why:

To participate one needs an account, and an account has a minimum cost
1 acc = 1 Nxt(open acc) + 1 Nxt(register public key) = 2Nxt per account

      If 1 Nxt = 1 vote then
Code:
1acc(1Nxt)     = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice
1acc(5Nxt)     = 5 votes    = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 5 voices
1acc(5milNxt)  = 5mil votes = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 5mil voices
What one can see from the above is that 1 Nxt = 1 vote is
 
Quote
  i) Completely contrary to decentralisation of power.
  ii) Favors account balance instead of community
 iii) Provides reasonable motive to hoard currency, effectively taking it out of circulation
      to the expense of the community.
  iv) Links voting power with ones' wealth instead of ones' opinion and willingness to participate
 
      If 1 acc = 1 vote then
Code:
1acc(1Nxt)     = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice
1acc(5Nxt)     = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice
1acc(5milNxt)  = 1 vote     = 2Nxt once to participate for ever = 1 account 1 voice
With the second method, 1acc = 1 vote we see the following
Quote
i) Decentralised voting power. One voice for each account regardless of account balance
 ii) Favors community outreach
iii) If one were to create vote puppets, he can do it at a minimum cost. But if he does he will
     kill 2Nxt with every account, thus provide profit for active nodes.
 iv) Allows for low treshold to actively participate, and strengthens community.
   

Seems to me that in an anonymous environment we cannot guarantee that one vote will
be one voice. I'm not convinced though that there are not other options, in fact there
have been some interesting opinions like account age. I believe there are options open.

My proposition is this:
Quote
To take part in a vote one would have to have an account that would meet the following requirements:

1) Is in existence at least 12-36 months BEFORE taking part in a vote and in that time to have AT LEAST
one transaction
. So it would have to be an active account that paid fees at least once.

2) Has a registered public key for AT LEAST 12-36 months before participating in a vote.

3) Has an alias registered AT LEAST 12-36 months before participating in a vote.

This would rise the cost of creating an account with voting ability to 3Nxt. If there is also
a cost of a message for the actual vote, then the cost for every voting account is 4Nxt.

with 1 voting acc at 4Nxt to participate we have the following:
Code:
1 acc  (1Nxt)  = 1 vote  = 3Nxt to create + 1Nxt to vote = 1 voice 3Nxt + 1 vote = 4Nnxt
1 acc  (5Nxt)  = 1 vote  = 3Nxt to create + 1nxt to vote = 1 voice 3Nxt + 1 vote = 4Nnxt
1 acc(5milNxt) = 1 vote  = 3Nxt to create + 1Nxt to vote = 1 voice 3Nxt + 1 vote = 4Nnxt

Still we can't be sure that everyone will behave. What we can do from here is to 
make it more expensive and less cost effective for an account with a large balance
trying to create voting puppets to rig the vote.

Quote
If 1acc(5mil) creates 5acc(1mil) to try to rig the vote, his vote would cost him
5acc (1milNxt) = 5 votes = 20Nxt to create + 5Nxt to vote = 1 voice 25Nxt
if 1acc(5milNxt) creates 10.000 vote puppets, let him go bankrupt and pay the fees.
Let the nodes collect the fees

This is my idea. NXT is bringing a whole new message to our society and we should
try to emphasize on making it more transparent. Giving voting power to a large wallet
will be a fatal blow to the foundations of NXT, as it is completely anti-social.

Sorry for the wall of text, but voting is a serious issue.
-Fo-
 
 
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
I tried to warn everyone...  Cry

Everyone has an opinion and I don't think it matters that much if people want to express that but for sure it won't help Nxt to get caught up in such issues.

The focus needs to be on the "tool" rather than "what it can be used for" - once the tool is in place there will be plenty of time for people to argue their causes.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
Would you people please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here?

+1

^1
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
I had no idea that talking about the single most pressing and confirmed issue in science in the recent decades would open a can of worms.

I personally believe humans are radically altering the Earth's ecosphere and may well render this planet uninhabitable in a century or two, whether global warming is true or not.

Check this out:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540955/Beijing-clouded-smog-way-sunrise-watch-giant-commercial-screens-Tiananmen-Square.html

This is what happens when you pass a Clean Air Act in America and then buy your plastic trinkets from a country like China that has no such regulations.  I am easily convinced that things like massive Chinese coal consumption is causing global warming.

However, putting a cryptocoin in the middle of the political debate over global warming is stupid, unnecessary and almost certainly  counterproductive.  

Energy efficiency over Bitcoin is a valid point.  Saying switching to NXT is going to Save The World is a stretch.  We should not go there.

full member
Activity: 266
Merit: 100
NXT is the future
Would you people please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here?

+1
full member
Activity: 171
Merit: 100
I was thinking of the voting issue as well. So far, a pattern is emerging.

Let v be the voting function, mapping the amount x in one account to it's voting weight: v(x) -> weight of voting. Let's further assume v is monotonically increasing (the more you have the more your vote weigh in) and differentiable (so we have a v').

There are three cases:

1) v' is increasing => merging accounts is more valuable regarding voting => merging encouraged
2) v' is constant => 1 Nxt = 1 Vote; conservative; no change encouraged
3) v' is decreasing => splitting accounts is more valuable regarding voting => splitting encouraged

From my perspective, distribution of nxts is a good thing. So, higher amounts of fees are a good thing. Therefore, splitting and merging accounts should be encouraged as big shareholders then have to give away fees. These fees are then given to the ones forging and stabilizing the network.

On the other hand, splitting and merging just because somebody wants to act in the best interest of the network seem to me like spoon-feeding that somebody.

So, why not making v dependent of the amount of fee somebody is willing to pay for it. I favor a logarithmic scale: v(fee) = log(fee).
In that case, one could even imagine that these special fees aren't just given to block forgers but are evenly distributed among 'all voters' or 'winners' or 'loosers' of the voting session.
So, voting is encouraged.



Please, can you put your approach in a mathematical expression?
That would be really helpful!!!
Just write it down in one or more terms.
Don't care about if its bullet proof.
If you like, you could add it to collection of voting models?

cheers
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
Please stop discussing global warming and any related political issues here.
sr. member
Activity: 491
Merit: 250
S P 8 D E
+ 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}

+ 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}

These won't work. They are easily defeated by splitting your wealth over several accounts.

I'm in favor of one vote per NXT.  That maximizes the value of each NXT rather than the value of having multiple accounts, or paying people to scam the system for you in some other way.

Any time you try to decentralized system that makes it difficult to game the system, you restrict the people who game the system to people who are willing to go against the implied moral contract of the platform (that you'll play by the rules).   In that way, I suggest it is better to allow everybody to "cheat" so that "cheating" is performed by good actors AND bad actors instead of just by actors willing to be bad.

NXT has a major concentration of wealth right now, but that's changing pretty quickly and if it gets popular I've got to imagine the temptation to sell part of their stakes will be too great for most.

It's really interesting watching this community - you guys are the only "headless" metalayer, lacking a founder or team and yet delivering with real working software.   

Keep up the good work Smiley

thanks man! your always welcomed in our thread!
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Well, here's a fun guy. Roll Eyes  Not going to give much attention to that whole spiel, but this here is just plain wrong:

If there is one issue big government loves more than global warming it is difficult to tell.

If governments around the world really somehow loved global warming the way you suppose, it should be noticeable in any relevant way. But even when I look at local crazy socialist fascist European politics, one thing that politicians in power try to care as little about as possible is CO2 emissions. For example, the German government (which is somehow known internationally to be the vanguard of environmentalism) is trying semi-secretly all the time, together with auto corporations, to disregard any environmental considerations and allow producers to build the highest possible amount of cars (and the biggest possible ones at that) they can.

In reality, governments have to be pressured from all sides (academics, elections, the public, even facts!) all the time to do even the bare minimal actions regarding the scientific fact of global warming.


[/evil_socialist_mode]

Ok, now that I got that out, I can now say how little I personally care about global warming. Why? Mostly because blind energy and resource consumption is so detrimental in and of itself. A Watt of energy wasted is a wasted Watt of energy, period, and one Watt less for later use. Don't believe in global warming all you want, but resources are finite, and we get almost all energy from mining and pumping finite resources. The fact of scarcity should be something even right "libertarians" should be able to get behind.

And now some über-scientific American right "libertarian" can go ahead and tell me how oil resources are unlimited, please Cheesy
full member
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Money be green

I remember fiat deposits being available in the past... but there was some type of problem with the payment processors they were using.

Whoops, my bad. I definitely withdrew fiat from Vircurex a few months ago. That's a pity.

Hopefully Kraken will launch a NXT/USD and/or NXT/EUR trade pair soon.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.

Leave it with the opinion function. More could mean a disaster.

1 nxt = 1 voice is fine. Case solved. Now implement it!  Wink
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
NXT has a major concentration of wealth right now, but that's changing pretty quickly...

It will also be changing back pretty quickly, if history tells us anything Smiley

There will always be extremely rich, so if we want more democratic approach we need to find a solution.

I don't mind people voting with their money, but not at 1:1 ratio.
full member
Activity: 184
Merit: 100
One big issue with that distributed and anonymous voting system is:

Who is gonna enforce the outcome? Actually, nobody.

A great politician once said: Never make rule you cannot enforce.

So, this voting system only for gathering opinions.

UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.

the only reasonable VS would be if the Nxt network itself can enforce the outcome of a voting.
this would be like coding an AI -> it's impossible.
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
Money be green
...
It's a polarizing farce that we really shouldn't attach ourselves to.

That's all there is to say. Leave it at energy costs and other implications.
+1

There is but one reason why it is polarizing. It is a serious problem and it is very difficult to solve. So there are 2 camps - those who "care and don't know how to fix it" and those who "don't care and don't know how to fix it".

Perhaps a solution is in order. I do suppose having humanity's global socioeconomic system running on a few ten's of thousands of raspberry pi's is a good start. Then those who care can continue to solve the problem while those who don't care are free to f*ck off to pollute some other planet (though they shouldn't do that either).
full member
Activity: 182
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NXT.org
I had no idea that talking about the single most pressing and confirmed issue in science in the recent decades would open a can of worms.

Let me first say:
I respect that there are people who have not read the scientific literature on the matter.
The "opponents" of global warming has managed to do a great job psychologically in making a lot of people believe that global warming is some sort of scam or somehow that it's just another hypothesis.
To me this is actually quite mindboggling with all the emperical data that exist and the borderline unprecedented consensus within the scientifiy community.
Even gravity is more controversial than global warming at this point, at least gravity is irreconcilable with relativistic quantum mechanics.
Proof of consensus on global warming and climate change: http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

So why do I mention this instead of just playing it neutral to not step anyone on their toes? Because it is real and I refuse to ignore this just because it "might" offend some redneck idiot because we might lose a few dollars over it. That is worse than what the banks is doing today, at least they just steal money and don't force people to remain ignorant and dumb.

As one of the guys who actually got into cryptos because I also actually believe in the need for change I will not piss on my principles.

But hey, I am not going to create the video so sure it's up for vote if we are going to include the fact that NXT is important due to the insane amounts of energy Bitcoin uses which is detrimental to the worlds ecosystem.

If you happen to lack knowledge about global warming and don't want it to be included: feel free to vote against it, since it's decentralized and democratic you have all the right to ignore reality.
But I honestly think it would be a much, much more honest and influential way to show just how important it is that a mining altcoin don't become THE FUTURE.
full member
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NXT is the future


speaking of:

please vote yes upper right corner

http://www.cryptmarketcap.com/

Pin
full member
Activity: 184
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please anyone explain me why the voting system is needed?
give me one concrete example why it could be useful.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
One big issue with that distributed and anonymous voting system is:

Who is gonna enforce the outcome? Actually, nobody.

A great politician once said: Never make rule you cannot enforce.

So, this voting system only for gathering opinions.

UNLESS

The Nxt client is distributed via Nxt itself. Then, changes (aka pull requests on https://github.com/) to the client can be voted on by the community. That would be real democracy.

I only fear that's gonna be very technical for most users.
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