NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 1652.

marcus03

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 14, 2014, 02:36:31 PM

Quote from: marcus03 on January 14, 2014, 02:33:09 PM

Could anyone (CFB?) explain the voting feature that is planned in more detail?

I'm asking because I was thinking that with AM it could be build into clients right now. To vote you would simply send a message to a defined address with yes, no or a number if there is a list to choise from. To get the results you would need to sum up the balances of the accounts that voted at the point in time when the voting started.

Is there an additional benefit in the planned voting implementation in the core?

We could have only AM and build everything on top, but it's not very convenient.

Additional benefits will be only after we implement Smart Contracts.

Is there an ETA for the voting system? Would it make sense to create an intermediate, client based voting system to gather some experience for the core implementation?

I was thinking about writing a command lines tool in Python just to create votings, vote and show the results of a vote. No reference implementation, just something intermediate to see how this could work.

salsacz

hero member

Activity: 490

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Number of Accounts with 1-10 Nxt = 7.352
Number of Accounts with 11-100 Nxt = 827
Number of Accounts with 101-1.000 Nxt = 1.236
Number of Accounts with 1.001-10.000 Nxt = 869
Number of Accounts with 10.001-100.000 Nxt = 718
Number of Accounts with 100.001-1.000.000 Nxt = 312
Number of Accounts with more than 1.000.000 Nxt = 122
Number of Accounts with more than 10.000.000 Nxt = 21
Number of Accounts with more than 30.000.000 Nxt = 6

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

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Newbie

Quote from: loopgate88 on January 14, 2014, 11:20:52 PM

Quote from: integrity42 on January 14, 2014, 10:27:16 PM

Ethereum just killed NXT.

Same with all the others.

It's 2013. PoW is no match to PoS. Face it, within PoS there's competition; everything else is just blackberrying its way out of existence.

Also they gave a big advantage to botmasters. Well, someone should fork their project, the core idea is great.

salsacz

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Activity: 490

Merit: 504

Quote from: hvezdasmrti on January 15, 2014, 12:43:18 AM

NXT is tooo expensive, 38 mil. market cap for premined starter up in pre-beta testing? Are you kidding? Adequate price for approving more people would be 10 times lower. At least 10 times.

And the voting system may be abusable very easy, whales may decide to punish all low-share holders and just vote about it... Or just to vote about stealing someones NXT?

jo, je to vtipně směšně malá částka, ale je třeba mít to podhodnocené, aby mohli nastoupit i ostatní

pandaisftw

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Quote from: salsacz on January 15, 2014, 01:37:18 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

In terms of voting, I appreciate what you're trying to do with a 1 person == 1 vote, but... well... it just won't work.

It really has to be Proof of Stake: 1 NXT == 1 Vote. Any other system WILL be gamed, and will not represent the collective interest of the NXT community.

Think of it like a stockholder voting in a typical corporation. You own one share, you get one vote. Except here, NXT is your stock.

Perhaps a proxy voting system could be implemented to help smaller stakeholders pool their collective votes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting.

I bet a bunch of smaller stakeholders banded together would be a formidable block.

But will the voting system consider, if large stakeholder moves his Nxt to more accounts during the voting time? Cheesy

50 mega from A, then 50 mega from B, then 50 mega from C account Cheesy

If it is 1 NXT = 1 vote, it doesn't matter what account the NXT is in. If the stakeholder votes with account A, then moves to account B, the votes from account A no longer have the stake to back up his votes.

salsacz

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Activity: 490

Merit: 504

Quote from: ?? on ??

In terms of voting, I appreciate what you're trying to do with a 1 person == 1 vote, but... well... it just won't work.

It really has to be Proof of Stake: 1 NXT == 1 Vote. Any other system WILL be gamed, and will not represent the collective interest of the NXT community.

Think of it like a stockholder voting in a typical corporation. You own one share, you get one vote. Except here, NXT is your stock.

Perhaps a proxy voting system could be implemented to help smaller stakeholders pool their collective votes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting.

I bet a bunch of smaller stakeholders banded together would be a formidable block.

But will the voting system consider, if large stakeholder moves his Nxt to more accounts during the voting time? Cheesy

50 mega from A, then 50 mega from B, then 50 mega from C account Cheesy

salsacz

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Activity: 490

Merit: 504

Quote from: gbeirn on January 14, 2014, 10:24:53 PM

Cross posted from: https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=530&p=2612#p2612

My thoughts on how to count votes.

Personally I think the most democratic way is 1 Account = 1 Vote, regardless of your wealth (amount of NXT). Sure someone could create multiple accounts to have more votes but since it costs NXT to send NXT to other accounts, you couldn't do this for long without going broke.

Another way to prevent the creation of dummy voting accounts would be to have a rule that NXT must remain in an account for a certain number of blocks before a vote to be counted as a valid voting account. Or say for example if a vote comes up at block 45,000 for example, only accounts that have a balance as of block 45,000 are counted for voting.

yes, we need to solve the problem with multiaccounts funded from the faucet

rigel

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Thank God I'm an atheist

Quote from: LiQio on January 15, 2014, 12:57:32 AM

Quote from: TwinWinNerD on January 15, 2014, 12:00:56 AM

Why is there even a discussion? This is a POS currency, that says it is a 100% POS currency, now people want to game the POS system? lol@game playing, that is basically POW and the reason i prefer this coin over others.

1 NXT = 1 Vote but we should include a 0.01% Fee on voting (1 FEE or 0.01% whatever is higher)

ATM I have to agree with TwinWinNerD: 1 NXT = 1 vote, but voting should not be free

PS: Just an imput - anybody contemplated a double majority yet?
Example in a Yes or No voting (always assuming that voting has a fee):
YES if (number of YES-Nxts bigger than number of NO-Nxts) and (number of YES-Accounts bigger than number of NO-Accounts)

This makes the system biased towards NO, so who propose the vote has great power in choosing if the question is "should we do xxx?" or "should we avoid xxx?"

lyynx

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Quote from: hvezdasmrti on January 15, 2014, 12:43:18 AM

NXT is tooo expensive, 38 mil. market cap for premined starter up in pre-beta testing? Are you kidding? Adequate price for approving more people would be 10 times lower. At least 10 times.

And the voting system may be abusable very easy, whales may decide to punish all low-share holders and just vote about it... Or just to vote about stealing someones NXT?

Wow, thank you so very much for enlightening us about the price of Nxt. 940+ pages of posts and we are all saved by your competent review of the market.

LiQio

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Quote from: TwinWinNerD on January 15, 2014, 12:00:56 AM

Why is there even a discussion? This is a POS currency, that says it is a 100% POS currency, now people want to game the POS system? lol@game playing, that is basically POW and the reason i prefer this coin over others.

1 NXT = 1 Vote but we should include a 0.01% Fee on voting (1 FEE or 0.01% whatever is higher)

ATM I have to agree with TwinWinNerD: 1 NXT = 1 vote, but voting should not be free

PS: Just an input - anybody contemplated a double majority yet?
Example in a Yes or No voting (always assuming that voting has a fee):
YES if (number of YES-Nxts bigger than number of NO-Nxts) and (number of YES-Accounts bigger than number of NO-Accounts)

coolfish

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Activity: 121

Merit: 100

All =1000000000 nxt; //10b
Ab =account balance;

Case one: Similar 1 nxt = 1 vote

Quote

if Ab<=1000; {1 nxt = 1 Vote;} // no fee ,if set fee,the fee will be obtain by large shareholder.
if Ab>1000 and Ab<=10000; {1 nxt =(1-Ab/All) vote;}
if Ab>10000 and Ab<=100000; {1 nxt =(1-Ab/All) vote; and min fee=1}
if Ab>100000 and Ab<=1000000; {1 nxt =(1-Ab/All) vote; and fee= (Ab/All)*10000;} //max fee= 10nxt
if Ab>1000000 and Ab<=10000000; {1 nxt =(1-Ab/All) vote; and fee= (Ab/All)*20000;} //max fee= 200nxt
if Ab>10000000 and Ab<=100000000; {1 nxt =(1-Ab/All) vote; and fee= (Ab/All)*20000;}//max fee= 2000nxt
if Ab>100000000; {1 nxt =(1-Ab/All)vote; and fee= (Ab/All)*35000;}//max fee= 3500nxt

But:
Maybe a person owns 100,000,000 ( e.g: [10000 accounts * 10000 per account] or [100000 accounts * 1000 per account] ) , do you have better good idea?

Case two: Similar 1 account = 1 vote , No matter how much the amount, fixed amount of voting.

Quote

if Ab<1000; {1 account = 0 vote; fee=1 nxt} //acct less than 1000, no the vote right.
if Ab>1000 and Ab<=10000; {1 account = 1 vote; fee=1 nxt}
if Ab>10000 and Ab<=100000; {1 account = 1 vote; fee=1 nxt}
....
.....
if Ab>100000000; {1 account = 1 vote; fee=1 nxt}

In this case, the account count is limited, because each must have nxt amount over 1000.
Maximum number of accounts is 1,000,000,000/1000 =1,000,000 vote

E.g:

Quote

if a person owns 100,000,000 ( e.g: [100000 accounts * 1000 per account] ) , He Max gets 100000 votes, this is a POS system, which is his right, and he will pay more than 100000 fee. Difficult? Grin

But this system is not the minority game, so a large number of small shareholders have a right to vote too...
100000 people each owns 1000, will beyond him... Difficult? Grin

So if you want to win the vote, or pay fee >100000 Nxt, or to find >100000 people ( >100000 accounts)

Edit: Case two Add a condition: Block Limit.

dzarmush

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Quote from: hvezdasmrti on January 15, 2014, 12:43:18 AM

38 mil. market cap for premined starter up in pre-beta testing?

It's not that Nxt cap high, it's atlcons caps low. Because they are just lousy copies of bitcoin and litecoin (which is a lousy copy of bitcoin). There is nothing in them. So Nxt cap is really low at the moment and it's just because it's in beta. When it's fully launched its cap is 100 higher.

xyzzyx

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I don't really come from outer space.

Quote from: User705 on January 15, 2014, 12:36:53 AM

Yes exactly. Nxt becomes a lot less attractive if major changes can be made by voting. What changes will be put up for vote?

Everything, I suspect. At least this is the way it looks to me. The way I see it, BCNext refuses to play the roll of benevolent dictator. He set the initial conditions and direction but is slowly removing himself from Nxt decision making. He's been prodding the community to get together and make decisions as a group concerning Nxt more and more over time.

Why did he release the source code with three flaws? Why did he release it with some parts besides the core excised? Why didn't he just say "here it is in full!" and release everything as he had it? Why did he make looking at the code, understanding the code a game? (Find the three flaws! Win prizes! Fun!) I suspect the answer to all of these questions is that he wants many eyes on the code and many people to start understand what it is doing so when he is no longer making decisions, the people who are running Nxt -- the people with stake -- can make informed decisions.

Nxt is a psychological experiment in group dynamics as well as a cryptoplatform.

At least, that's how I see it. I could be wrong.

Bitventurer

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S P 8 D E

by the way will voting system be effecting the colored coins with in the system ? let say bob opened a company made an IPO with nxt ... nxters killed the IPO ?

dzarmush

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Quote from: pandaisftw on January 14, 2014, 11:54:17 PM

EDIT: The only truly fair way that I can think of currently is 1 NXT = 1 vote.

Me too.

hvezdasmrti

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NXT is tooo expensive, 38 mil. market cap for premined starter up in pre-beta testing? Are you kidding? Adequate price for approving more people would be 10 times lower. At least 10 times.

And the voting system may be abusable very easy, whales may decide to punish all low-share holders and just vote about it... Or just to vote about stealing someones NXT?

msin

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Quote from: User705 on January 15, 2014, 12:36:53 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on January 15, 2014, 12:33:48 AM

Quote from: msin on January 15, 2014, 12:26:33 AM

Quote from: User705 on January 14, 2014, 11:53:39 PM

Can someone explain in plain terms what this "voting" is for?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

I think the question was within the context of Nxt itself - my understanding is that changes to the protocol or other things that could greatly affect the stakeholders would be subject to a vote.

Yes exactly. Nxt becomes a lot less attractive if major changes can be made by voting. What changes will be put up for vote?

Yes, sorry, that was a smart ass reply. I think its more than just changes in protocol, think about voting as a mass communication tool for Nxt, very powerful.

PeercoinEnthusiast

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JustabitofTime - Co-Founder of CoinTropolis

Quote from: User705 on January 15, 2014, 12:36:53 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on January 15, 2014, 12:33:48 AM

Quote from: msin on January 15, 2014, 12:26:33 AM

Quote from: User705 on January 14, 2014, 11:53:39 PM

Can someone explain in plain terms what this "voting" is for?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

I think the question was within the context of Nxt itself - my understanding is that changes to the protocol or other things that could greatly affect the stakeholders would be subject to a vote.

Yes exactly. Nxt becomes a lot less attractive if major changes can be made by voting. What changes will be put up for vote?

** Opinion **

Like shareholders... the higher your stake is in Nxt, the more votes that should count. If smaller holders are interested in pushing a vote, they can simply try to rally other stakeholders to their cause and vote in a block.

apenzl

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Quote from: User705 on January 15, 2014, 12:36:53 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on January 15, 2014, 12:33:48 AM

Quote from: msin on January 15, 2014, 12:26:33 AM

Quote from: User705 on January 14, 2014, 11:53:39 PM

Can someone explain in plain terms what this "voting" is for?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

I think the question was within the context of Nxt itself - my understanding is that changes to the protocol or other things that could greatly affect the stakeholders would be subject to a vote.

Yes exactly. Nxt becomes a lot less attractive if major changes can be made by voting. What changes will be put up for vote?

You decide.

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: User705 on January 15, 2014, 12:36:53 AM

Nxt becomes a lot less attractive if major changes can be made by voting. What changes will be put up for vote?

Maybe the first vote should be about that.

Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 1652. (Read 2761645 times)