NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 709.

evanxxx

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 10:00:02 AM

For a start I don't think we have seen any math to "prove" that the penalty system will give us >90% protection (does anyone have that information?).

From the text by BCNext/cfb, it seems so to me. don't know about the math

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 10:00:02 AM

The health of the network is dependent upon people forging (for whatever reason they do it) so my concern is that penalising smaller stake holders for "not forging" could reduce the number of forging nodes and therefore potentially "weaken" the network (by making it more vulnerable to governments who might decide to order the shutdown of servers).

In fact, I think penalizing or not has very little effect to smaller stake holders, because it takes them a very long time to forge a block, it doesn't make sense to forge for just a few days and shut down the computer.

Edit: unless lots of large stake holders are shut down by governments

Meizirkki

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Quote from: Anon136 on February 24, 2014, 09:50:57 AM

Quote from: Meizirkki on February 24, 2014, 09:38:10 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 09:36:18 AM

Quote from: Meizirkki on February 24, 2014, 09:30:44 AM

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

I assume this will be implemented by the community if nxt devs don't do it.. so yea. A real problem right here.

It's the perfect environment to build and test the first DAC's. Rather than having a service provider wield peoples hashes, this is the sort of thing that could all be handled by open source code running on the block chain *relatively* easily instead.

Sorry I'm not so familiar with these terms. What's a DAC?

Mario123

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Quote from: Mario123 on February 24, 2014, 03:38:59 AM

Pump

Quote from: Mario123 on February 17, 2014, 06:43:30 AM

Who is able to develop a lightweight NXT tool for Windows and Mac, which sits just in your taskbar/menubar (see picture as an example)?

Installing and running this little tool should be hassle free. You can lookup your account, use main Nxt functions (like sending NXT, messaging), activate/deactivate forging right from the menu and you see some general blockchain stats.

That way, we could promote this little gadget as a simple and lightweight tool which runs smoothly in the background, forging for you (or not) and securing the Nxt network.

http://cdn.osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/desktop-utility-osx-lion.jpg
http://cloud.addictivetips.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Window-On-Top.png

(I'm no windows user. Do windows user still have this little apps in the task bar? Or is there a modern equivalent, like a gadget on the desktop?)

Since this is so OS-special, maybe two different developers for Windows and Mac. Come on, guys. Raise your hand for this project!

Developers, stand up, please. I think this would be a very nice thing to have for Nxt.

salsacz

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Quote from: rickyjames on February 24, 2014, 09:57:44 AM

Quote from: salsacz on February 24, 2014, 05:48:08 AM

Damelon: hours and hours of communication

Ricky was informed on 18th of Feb how it works. Currently Nifty is dealing with Paul (organisator), we signed a form in Berlin, but he hasn't sent a payment info yet

Salsa, the form you signed says payment is due on signing and the signed form is to be sent to Steven Wilkinson at [email protected] so that he can register the Sponsor and send the Sponsor an invoice. Did you ever send a copy of the signed form to Steven?

I sent it to you and told you to fill your name (and telephone?) there so you could send it to Steven (" There still needs to be filled info about Nxt speaker there."). Did you fill it and sent it to Steven?

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: evanxxx on February 24, 2014, 09:55:51 AM

well, still not sure whether I understand correctly, will this downgrade the 90% attack protection to 51% attack protection?

For a start I don't think we have seen any math to "prove" that the penalty system will give us >90% protection (does anyone have that information?).

The health of the network is dependent upon people forging (for whatever reason they do it) so my concern is that penalising smaller stake holders for "not forging" could reduce the number of forging nodes and therefore potentially "weaken" the network (by making it more vulnerable to governments who might decide to order the shutdown of servers).

rickyjames

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Quote from: salsacz on February 24, 2014, 05:48:08 AM

Damelon: hours and hours of communication

Ricky was informed on 18th of Feb how it works. Currently Nifty is dealing with Paul (organisator), we signed a form in Berlin, but he hasn't sent a payment info yet

Salsa, the form you signed says payment is due on signing and the signed form is to be sent to Steven Wilkinson at [email protected] so that he can register the Sponsor and send the Sponsor an invoice. Did you ever send a copy of the signed form to Steven?

evanxxx

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 09:33:45 AM

Okay - let's imagine two chains (and think of the numbers after each letter as being "weight"):

A(100) B(10) C(50) = 160 (total weight)

A(50) B(200) C(100) = 340 (total weight)

So although A(100) is better than A(50) once we have B(200) and C(100) added to it then it is of no use for A(100) to "suddenly appear".

Thus if you are going to "game the system" you need to be sure that you can win the game. Without collusion you will not achieve this.

well, still not sure whether I understand correctly, will this downgrade the 90% attack protection to 51% attack protection?

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 09:53:01 AM

If we have penalty, 1000TFP and instant confirmation 'running', could we lose a lot of our 'important' nodes with penalty for a period of time?

I think you mean 1000 TPS but the penalty wouldn't be much of a problem for pools as they effectively have as many accounts as the # of people who have leased forging rights to them (so it just means that they can't use certain "tickets").

bitcoinpaul

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If we have penalty, 1000TFP and instant confirmation 'running', could we lose a lot of our 'important' nodes with penalty for a period of time?

Anon136

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Quote from: Meizirkki on February 24, 2014, 09:38:10 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 09:36:18 AM

Quote from: Meizirkki on February 24, 2014, 09:30:44 AM

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

I assume this will be implemented by the community if nxt devs don't do it.. so yea. A real problem right here.

It's the perfect environment to build and test the first DAC's. Rather than having a service provider wield peoples hashes, this is the sort of thing that could all be handled by open source code running on the block chain *relatively* easily instead.

rickyjames

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Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:13:13 AM

Quote from: farl4web on February 24, 2014, 08:10:03 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 1 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

When is the change of fee planned to 0.1 NXT? I think if NXT is been calculated more in decimals behind the comma(point), 1 NXT will get more valuable. Pure
psychological.

sorry

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 100 Nxt = 100 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

Keep thinking. You had to run this node for a year, so the 100 dollars has to cover a monthly operations cost of 100/12 = $8.33 per month

So....

IF the block you capture once a year has 100 NXT in fees in it and
IF each NXT is worth $1 and
IF your monthly hardware amortization, bandwidth costs, and electricity costs are less than $8.33 per month

Then you made a monthly profit = $8.33 - monthly server costs

Anybody out there running a VPN for less than $8.33 per month?

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 09:39:16 AM

Why do we need AT for the savings account?

Actually you don't but the AT will be more designed as a "term deposit" (i.e. the funds are *locked* until a certain time then released).

It will be helpful for those that "don't trust themselves" and also could function for passing on "an inheritance" of NXT (by having it tie into the Dormant Funds Transfer AT I've built).

bitcoinpaul

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 09:36:18 AM

Quote from: Meizirkki on February 24, 2014, 09:30:44 AM

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

Today is Q&A with CIYAM Grin

Why do we need AT for the savings account?

Meizirkki

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Activity: 616

Merit: 500

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 09:36:18 AM

Quote from: Meizirkki on February 24, 2014, 09:30:44 AM

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

I assume this will be implemented by the community if nxt devs don't do it.. so yea. A real problem right here.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: Meizirkki on February 24, 2014, 09:30:44 AM

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

S3MKi

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Do we have news about crypto audit?

CIYAM

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Activity: 1890

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: evanxxx on February 24, 2014, 09:29:12 AM

Maybe I don't get the point, but by gaming the system, I mean something like forging a secret chain.

Okay - let's imagine two chains (and think of the numbers after each letter as being "weight"):

A(100) B(10) C(50) = 160 (total weight)

A(50) B(200) C(100) = 340 (total weight)

So although A(100) is better than A(50) once we have B(200) and C(100) added to it then it is of no use for A(100) to "suddenly appear".

Thus if you are going to "game the system" you need to be sure that you can win the game. Without collusion you will not achieve this.

Meizirkki

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Activity: 616

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I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

evanxxx

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Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 09:24:38 AM

Quote from: evanxxx on February 24, 2014, 09:22:23 AM

If small player not penalized, what if large stakeholders split their Nxts into multiple accounts and game the system?

The whole point of being able to "lease" your forging right would mean that a pool can't do that (effectively you end up with no pools otherwise).

Pools are not a bad idea as to achieve the high TPS we are wanting we are most likely going to need them.

Maybe I don't get the point, but by gaming the system, I mean something like forging a secret chain.

CIYAM

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Activity: 1890

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: evanxxx on February 24, 2014, 09:22:23 AM

If small player not penalized, what if large stakeholders split their Nxts into multiple accounts and game the system?

The whole point of being able to "lease" your forging right would mean that a pool can't do that (effectively you end up with no pools otherwise).

Pools are not a bad idea as to achieve the high TPS we are wanting we are most likely going to need them.

Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 709. (Read 2761650 times)