NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 712.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 07:25:18 AM

If you forge a block now, you cannot forge the next 1440 blocks?

If you "do not forge your block" when your turn is supposed to be now (and which I understand applies to 3 or 4 nodes at the same time under TF) then you cannot forge for the next 1440 blocks.

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

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If you forge a block now, you cannot forge the next 1440 blocks?

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 07:06:34 AM

So I am in the group which is about to forge the next block, but for whatever reasons (maybe too few fees in it, transaction from and to accounts we don't like... Be creative), we all say independently "no, we don't want". If there is no penalty, this can happen often. Wouldn't this hurt the network?

Not unless everyone was doing that - under TF you are expected to have 3 or 4 nodes "competing" to forge for every block (and thus 2 or 3 are being penalised).

The incentive to forge is to make fees so it makes very little sense to "not forge" (I know at the moment we have many blocks with zero fees but I don't expect that to be the case down the track).

igmaca

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Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 07:02:35 AM

Quote from: marek3ball on February 24, 2014, 07:00:47 AM

Quote from: mephy on February 24, 2014, 06:41:07 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 06:19:07 AM

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

I think forging should be more interactive.

For example:
Someone started a node with 10000 NXT, waited for 1 week, still 10000 NXT -> Boring.
plus no idea, if it actually worked or not, maybe even a false run.

Other example:
Someone started node with 10000, in 6 hours he get 10000.0001
Pool functionality but with no risk.
There are lots of people who can run a node at work with no cost (for them

). We should show them they can earn some doing nothing.

I dont start bitcoin / other miner coz a lot of cooler noise. NXT makes no noise

I see some connection between your idea and "Shared Forging". In case we can Share to 1000 accounts or equivalent of 1M NXT.

"Shared Forging" sounds to me much more better then "Leased Forging" which leads to big pools.

Today's Forging person with small NXT amount will wait 50 years to see forged block.
Shared Forging person will see progress every day or week and get 0.001 NXT and not 20 NXT every 50 years.

Forging / earning situation is disappointment for new people. And then they will talk bad about Nxt.

someone who understands me

finally Wink

if you only shared your rights fees forging power remains extremely decentralized.

at the same time forging should be more interactive.

Little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

redsn0w

legendary

Activity: 1778

Merit: 1043

#Free market

Thank you 8220066011284257438 for your donation Wink

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=12008684443818207685

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

So I am in the group which is about to forge the next block, but for whatever reasons (maybe too few fees in it, transaction from and to accounts we don't like... Be creative), we all say independently "no, we don't want". If there is no penalty, this can happen often. Wouldn't this hurt the network?

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: marek3ball on February 24, 2014, 07:00:47 AM

Quote from: mephy on February 24, 2014, 06:41:07 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 06:19:07 AM

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

I think forging should be more interactive.

For example:
Someone started a node with 10000 NXT, waited for 1 week, still 10000 NXT -> Boring.
plus no idea, if it actually worked or not, maybe even a false run.

Other example:
Someone started node with 10000, in 6 hours he get 10000.0001
Pool functionality but with no risk.
There are lots of people who can run a node at work with no cost (for them

). We should show them they can earn some doing nothing.

I dont start bitcoin / other miner coz a lot of cooler noise. NXT makes no noise

I see some connection between your idea and "Shared Forging". In case we can Share to 1000 accounts or equivalent of 1M NXT.

"Shared Forging" sounds to me much more better then "Leased Forging" which leads to big pools.

Today's Forging person with small NXT amount will wait 50 years to see forged block.
Shared Forging person will see progress every day or week and get 0.001 NXT and not 20 NXT every 50 years.

Forging / earning situation is disappointment for new people. And then they will talk bad about Nxt.

someone who understands me

finally Wink

marek3ball

full member

Activity: 180

Merit: 100

Quote from: mephy on February 24, 2014, 06:41:07 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 06:19:07 AM

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

I think forging should be more interactive.

For example:
Someone started a node with 10000 NXT, waited for 1 week, still 10000 NXT -> Boring.
plus no idea, if it actually worked or not, maybe even a false run.

Other example:
Someone started node with 10000, in 6 hours he get 10000.0001
Pool functionality but with no risk.
There are lots of people who can run a node at work with no cost (for them

). We should show them they can earn some doing nothing.

I dont start bitcoin / other miner coz a lot of cooler noise. NXT makes no noise

I see some connection between your idea and "Shared Forging". In case we can Share to 1000 accounts or equivalent of 1M NXT.

"Shared Forging" sounds to me much more better then "Leased Forging" which leads to big pools.

Today's Forging person with small NXT amount will wait 50 years to see forged block.
Shared Forging person will see progress every day or week and get 0.001 NXT and not 20 NXT every 50 years.

Forging / earning situation is disappointment for new people. And then they will talk bad about Nxt.

farl4web

legendary

Activity: 1205

Merit: 1000

Quote from: salsacz on February 23, 2014, 08:42:03 AM

Green Nxt: exotic video, new version:
http://youtu.be/cP4KFH6Iz0g

feel free to share

Cool! … huh Hot! Roll Eyes

shared!

Damelon

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1010

Quote from: mephy on February 24, 2014, 06:41:07 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 06:19:07 AM

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

I think forging should be more interactive.

For example:
Someone started a node with 10000 NXT, waited for 1 week, still 10000 NXT -> Boring.
plus no idea, if it actually worked or not, maybe even a false run.

Other example:
Someone started node with 10000, in 6 hours he get 10000.0001
Pool functionality but with no risk.
There are lots of people who can run a node at work with no cost (for them

). We should show them they can earn some doing nothing.

Speaking psychologically, not technically, this is completely correct.

starik69

legendary

Activity: 1367

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Jean-Luc on February 24, 2014, 05:54:30 AM

Quote from: starik69 on February 24, 2014, 05:49:27 AM

Still don't understand. In versions <0.8.0 when i announce a public address but set sharing to false other node will connect to me only after my node first connects to it. In 0.8.0 such logic of behavior is impossible. Is this true? Huh

Yes, this is true. You don't have control over which nodes you connect to, so why would you need such behavior? It would only make sense if you can define a whitelist of nodes to connect to, but currently you can't do that. Your node will keep trying to connect to whatever list of peers it receives from the others, and telling them your public address itself, how is that different from allowing the peers to share it amongst themselves too?

You are wrong, i can define a whitelist of nodes to connect to by firewall rules.

Edit. and btw, what are nxt.pushThreshold and nxt.pullThreshold then for? Huh

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: EmoneyRu on February 24, 2014, 06:51:16 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:47:43 AM

After discussing this issue with CIYAM Open I got that we indeed have a problem here. If users will just lease their power and forget then one day Nxt network may die.

Why? Some target to the moon magic? Who's chain would be prioritized?

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 06:05:33 AM

I don't see it as being necessary in that any advantage of "not forging" would require significant amount of collusion IMO to be of financial benefit (maybe someone with some math skills can work on this).

Just let me forge with some generated time limited code made from key phrase and I'll give it to you. Right now I don't want to cron forging with the main key.

Quote from: Jean-Luc on February 22, 2014, 06:56:02 AM

There are no hardcoded nxt.wellKnownPeers in the default properties files. You are supposed to set those to your own preferred peers in nxt.properties. However, if none are set, a random selection of nxtcrypto.org and nxtbase.com public nodes will be used.

They are managed by 2 people only. Anything can happen. It'd better to have some predefined peers in your distribution. On start just combine them and random selected ones.

no power to forge not share.

share your fees if you forges

is not the same with respect to network security

EmoneyRu

hero member

Activity: 600

Merit: 500

Nxt-kit developer

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:47:43 AM

After discussing this issue with CIYAM Open I got that we indeed have a problem here. If users will just lease their power and forget then one day Nxt network may die.

Why? Some target to the moon magic? Who's chain would be prioritized?

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 06:05:33 AM

I don't see it as being necessary in that any advantage of "not forging" would require significant amount of collusion IMO to be of financial benefit (maybe someone with some math skills can work on this).

Just let me forge with some generated time limited code made from key phrase and I'll give it to you. Right now I don't want to cron forging with the main key.

Quote from: Jean-Luc on February 22, 2014, 06:56:02 AM

There are no hardcoded nxt.wellKnownPeers in the default properties files. You are supposed to set those to your own preferred peers in nxt.properties. However, if none are set, a random selection of nxtcrypto.org and nxtbase.com public nodes will be used.

They are managed by 2 people only. Anything can happen. It'd better to have some predefined peers in your distribution. On start just combine them and random selected ones.

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: mephy on February 24, 2014, 06:41:07 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 06:19:07 AM

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

I think forging should be more interactive.

For example:
Someone started a node with 10000 NXT, waited for 1 week, still 10000 NXT -> Boring.
plus no idea, if it actually worked or not, maybe even a false run.

Other example:
Someone started node with 10000, in 6 hours he get 10000.0001
Pool functionality but with no risk.
There are lots of people who can run a node at work with no cost (for them

). We should show them they can earn some doing nothing.

I dont start bitcoin / other miner coz a lot of cooler noise. NXT makes no noise

I sincerely see the solution very easy Grin

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 06:10:06 AM

Without some sort of penalty, nodes can do what they want. Or do I misunderstand you?

It won't matter whether they forge or not (others will) so no need for a penalty IMO.

Understand that when TF is completed you can expect to be penalised often as you will normally be competing with 3 or 4 other nodes (at least that is my understanding).

I know that I am simply going to be putting my NXT savings into an interest bearing AT (which I am going to write of course) which invests in a pool (with the ability to switch pools via an AM) rather than bother running a node myself (although in the long term I will probably end up investing in some hardware as well).

mephy

newbie

Activity: 33

Merit: 0

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 06:19:07 AM

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

I think forging should be more interactive.

For example:
Someone started a node with 10000 NXT, waited for 1 week, still 10000 NXT -> Boring.
plus no idea, if it actually worked or not, maybe even a false run.

Other example:
Someone started node with 10000, in 6 hours he get 10000.0001
Pool functionality but with no risk.
There are lots of people who can run a node at work with no cost (for them

). We should show them they can earn some doing nothing.

I dont start bitcoin / other miner coz a lot of cooler noise. NXT makes no noise

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 06:19:07 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 06:05:33 AM

Another issue that I think needs to be carefully considered is the "penalty" for not forging.

I don't see it as being necessary in that any advantage of "not forging" would require significant amount of collusion IMO to be of financial benefit (maybe someone with some math skills can work on this).

And where I see it as being problematic is that our little hobbyists are quite likely to just switch off their forger for a day if they get penalized. It may even piss them off enough to "give up forging" once again potentially hurting our network.

So in summary I think that we "don't need it" and IMO we would be better off without it.

I agree with you

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

actually a person with 1900 Nxt forge the end of a year one block. (if 1440 blocks per day are forged)

therefore will get an annual return of funds to keep their forging.

is more perception than having to wait a whole year in the worst case which can not maintain the interest to little hobbyists

EvilDave

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 1001

Last minute opportunity to attend/give talk Ethereum/Bitcoin meetup in Amsterdam.
Thursday 27 Feb!

Like it says above, just had a mail from Bas de Lange (Bitcoin meetup organiser) asking if I'd be interested in giving a talk this week at this meetup event:

http://bitcoinobserver.com/news/2014-02-12-Ethereum-Bitcoin-Amsterdam-Meetup-ZB45-Makerspace.html

I'm not going to be even slightly available, (and i dont think that I have the presentation skills or NXT in-depth knowledge needed).
Might be useful to attend, though, if there any A'dam/NL NXT'ers interested.

If you're up for it, u can either PM me and/or get in touch with Bas directly.

On the network nodes/bandwidth/forging question:

Can someone audit the entire NXT network over the next few days and come up with some solid information/statistics about what we actually have running right now? I can get estimates from PeerExplorer / NRS, but more in-depth info would be good.
Public/private nodes, forging or not, VPS or stand-alone...estimates of current transaction capacity ( ? TPS)and power consumption would also be nice.
Once we know what we actually have, and how well it performs, we can move on to plan for what we need.

Any NXT dudes with the required skills want to volunteer?

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 06:05:33 AM

Another issue that I think needs to be carefully considered is the "penalty" for not forging.

I don't see it as being necessary in that any advantage of "not forging" would require significant amount of collusion IMO to be of financial benefit (maybe someone with some math skills can work on this).

And where I see it as being problematic is that our little hobbyists are quite likely to just switch off their forger for a day if they get penalized. It may even piss them off enough to "give up forging" once again potentially hurting our network.

So in summary I think that we "don't need it" and IMO we would be better off without it.

I agree with you

little hobbyists will be interested if forging every 2 to 3 days and profit must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 06:05:33 AM

Another issue that I think needs to be carefully considered is the "penalty" for not forging.

I don't see it as being necessary in that any advantage of "not forging" would require significant amount of collusion IMO to be of financial benefit (maybe someone with some math skills can work on this).

And where I see it as being problematic is that our little hobbyists are quite likely to just switch off their forger for a day if they get penalized. It may even piss them off enough to "give up forging" once again potentially hurting our network.

So in summary I think that we "don't need it" and IMO we would be better off without it.

Without some sort of penalty, nodes can do what they want. Or do I misunderstand you?

Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 712. (Read 2761645 times)