NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 710.

evanxxx

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 08:50:11 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 08:46:13 AM

How can we sure that no entity will game the system, when there is no functioning penalty?

As I stated to "game the system" you need a huge amount of forging power as you need to be able to create "multiple" blocks behind peoples back in order to have any hope of winning against those "playing fairly" (remember that the longest chain with the best tickets is the winner every time - so if enough honest players are out there then it would be rather hard to beat them).

So for a small player there doesn't seem to be much reason for the penalty (as there would need to be many such small players "in on" the deal to try and help with a fork) - with regards to the larger players it does make some sense (as an "extra" insurance).

If small player not penalized, what if large stakeholders split their Nxts into multiple accounts and game the system?

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 09:09:12 AM

But the other part, I don't get. Can you rephrase it?

Okay - so let's say that the best ticket for the next block should be #12345 and you have #12344 and someone else has #12346.

If #12345 is not transmitted then nodes will accept your ticket or the other ticket instead (remember that each node in the network can't *see* everything at once so both you and the other node after a certain amount of time waiting to see #12345 decide it isn't going to appear and "try your luck").

So your node will send out #12344 and the other node will send out #12346. The network is happy to build on one of those new chains (lets assume that the "lower" ticket closest is always the best) so now #12346 will be "penalised".

It hasn't hurt the network - it is fine to keep on building with your #12344 but it has now hurt #12346 as they can't forge for a day.

Also network latency makes it impossible for you to be sure whether in fact #12345 has been sent or not (due to timing it may well have but your slow internet connection means that you didn't see it on time).

So if #12345 actually had been broadcast but both you and the other forger just didn't see it quickly enough then now you are both penalised.

redsn0w

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#Free market

Quote from: msin on February 24, 2014, 08:57:19 AM

Quote from: msin on February 23, 2014, 04:46:28 PM

Quote from: msin on February 21, 2014, 07:24:04 PM

SWARM NEEDED

Here is the reddit post, please everyone sign up at Bittrex.

Hello NXT community,

I solicited feedback on another thread about which coins we should support on our exchange before our public launch. NXT was overwhelmingly recommended.

Before we make the final decision, we're providing a special invite code for NXT users to experience our site first hand. Go to https://bittrex.com/Account/Register and use SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code. This gets you past the invite code queue. Place some trades, enabled 2FA, or try any of our other features to help us stress the site before the final launch. If you find a bug, we're handing out bug bounties as well. Having a great exchange helps us but also helps the NXT community.

If we get 100 signs ups using that code and active on our site, we'll add NXT before our public launch.

Please let me know if you have any questions or feedback, Bill

Just a reminder for everyone who hasn't already to please sign up for Bittrex. Will also update everyone on Atomic Trade soon. Thank you

68 signups as of this mornings, we need 32 more people to sign up at Bittrex, please do so if you have not. Thank you.

Done

.

bitcoinpaul

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Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 09:06:09 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 09:01:40 AM

4. We disturb the whole Nxt network by not forging when we should do it.

This is where you're misunderstanding things - although there is always a "best ticket" out there we can accept one that is "close enough" if we see it (this is why a lot of people are going to get penalised as they will be saying "try my ticket" but the network will end up choosing another "better ticket" as the best ticket was sent out after yours and others decided to pick it instead of yours).

So the network will *always* have another block to pick from so your "not forging" is not likely to "disturb" the network at all. The threat is that you and a band of conspirators are building a secret "best chain" offline ready to replace the last X blocks.

I get that the bigger threat is the secret offline chain we want to build.

But the other part, I don't get. Can you rephrase it?

edit: Ok, I might get it now. But have to think more about it - thought I could disturb the network. Not 'destroy' it, but disturb.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 09:01:40 AM

4. We disturb the whole Nxt network by not forging when we should do it.

This is where you're misunderstanding things - although there is always a "best ticket" out there we can accept one that is "close enough" if we see it (this is why a lot of people are going to get penalised as they will be saying "try my ticket" but the network will end up choosing another "better ticket" as the best ticket was sent out after yours and others decided to pick it instead of yours).

The stake holder with the best ticket may not bother forging or assigning his/her forging rights to a pool.

So the network will *always* have another block to pick from so your "not forging" is not likely to "disturb" the network at all. The threat is that you and a band of conspirators are building a secret "best chain" offline ready to replace the last X blocks (i.e. the >50% attack).

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: pandaisftw on February 24, 2014, 08:58:34 AM

Pretty much impossible (relative to Bitcoin).

Yes - this is also my opinion - so although I can see it might be useful as an "extra insurance" against possible collusion I am worried that it result in "less forging nodes" as those who only have 1 account and find themselves constantly being penalised are likely to prefer to allocate their forging rights to a pool rather than get frustrated.

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Let me construct a scenario to better understand it.

1. I'm Janet Yellen and want to score a coup.
2. I buy a shitload of NXT since february 2014.
3. Running some servers till christmas and then say to the admins: "Ok, guys. Now every time, we are the only nodes in the group who should forge a block we don't. Ok?" "Yes, Madame"
4. We disturb the whole Nxt network by not forging when we should do it.
5. We do it over and over again because we are not penalized.

Now how likely is it that we are the only nodes in the forging group? Well, this depends on how big the group is, how many Nxt and accounts I have. But, well Janet has a lot. How large is the group? Don't know.

Where is my mistake?

pandaisftw

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Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 08:37:34 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 08:19:39 AM

So the idea is, that the above is nonsense?

IMO it isn't necessary to do it this way but I don't know the *exact* details of this TF so it is hard to be certain.

Secretly trying to create an alternative blockchain "behind our backs" would require a lot of collusion (although this does depend upon just how many pools we end up with).

I can see if we ended up with only a very small number of pools that controlled the vast majority of forging power then you would have a very real potential threat but if our forging power is spread much better than that then I don't see it is an issue (it would require a lot of different parties to collude and the chances of that would become lower according to the number of said parties).

Another idea does spring to mind though - maybe we should "only apply the penalty to forgers controlling more than x% of the stake" (unless we are worried about collusion happening between potentially thousands of smaller forging nodes). This would protect against the largest stake holders colluding whilst giving smaller stake holders more incentive to forge.

The most important thing we have to consider here is the "health of the network".

https://blockchain.info/pools

2 pools in bitcoin own ~51% of the network hashpower... have they ever colluded (since they only need 51%)? Also, I wonder why this isn't big news... 2 pools that large is definitely unhealthy. Anyways, extrapolating the % distribution to NXT (91% attack), all 10 of the named pools + half of the unknown sources on that list would all have to be in collision at the same time.

Pretty much impossible (relative to Bitcoin).

msin

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: msin on February 23, 2014, 04:46:28 PM

Quote from: msin on February 21, 2014, 07:24:04 PM

SWARM NEEDED

Here is the reddit post, please everyone sign up at Bittrex.

Hello NXT community,

I solicited feedback on another thread about which coins we should support on our exchange before our public launch. NXT was overwhelmingly recommended.

Before we make the final decision, we're providing a special invite code for NXT users to experience our site first hand. Go to https://bittrex.com/Account/Register and use SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code. This gets you past the invite code queue. Place some trades, enabled 2FA, or try any of our other features to help us stress the site before the final launch. If you find a bug, we're handing out bug bounties as well. Having a great exchange helps us but also helps the NXT community.

If we get 100 signs ups using that code and active on our site, we'll add NXT before our public launch.

Please let me know if you have any questions or feedback, Bill

Just a reminder for everyone who hasn't already to please sign up for Bittrex. Will also update everyone on Atomic Trade soon. Thank you

68 signups as of this mornings, we need 32 more people to sign up at Bittrex, please do so if you have not. Thank you.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 08:46:13 AM

How can we sure that no entity will game the system, when there is no functioning penalty?

As I stated to "game the system" you need a huge amount of forging power as you need to be able to create "multiple" blocks behind peoples back in order to have any hope of winning against those "playing fairly" (remember that the longest chain with the best tickets is the winner every time - so if enough honest players are out there then it would be rather hard to beat them).

So for a small player there doesn't seem to be much reason for the penalty (as there would need to be many such small players "in on" the deal to try and help with a fork) - with regards to the larger players it does make some sense (as an "extra" insurance).

redsn0w

legendary

Activity: 1778

Merit: 1043

#Free market

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 02:34:33 AM

In ~8 hours I'm planning to reload the testnet, balances will be reset.

Hi Cfb , at the moment I still have 30k TestNxt in my account : 4940924250576724047

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

How can we be sure that no entity will game the system, when there is no penalty?

barbierir

hero member

Activity: 515

Merit: 502

I'm not a dev and I haven't the slightest idea it is doable, but I wonder if forging could be based on the number of nodes you're connected to? Maybe with a limit beyond which you don't get additional bonus. Example: if you're connected to other 100 nodes you've ten times the chance of forging as someone connected to 10 nodes. So if the limit is 100 nodes and you want more forging power, you must set up a second node.

l8orre

legendary

Activity: 1181

Merit: 1018

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 02:34:33 AM

In ~8 hours I'm planning to reload the testnet, balances will be reset.

Hey CfB -I'll be out for a fe whours - when you restart, please send some testNXT to:

1738404304940813414

I'll really need them for client testing - my client is getting very usable now, and the focus shifts from architecture to hooking up widgets. I have posted a few screens over in the client tracking thread.

I am wondering about the GET - POST switchover - we'll see ...

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 08:19:39 AM

So the idea is, that the above is nonsense?

IMO it isn't necessary to do it this way but I don't know the *exact* details of this TF so it is hard to be certain.

Secretly trying to create an alternative blockchain "behind our backs" would require a lot of collusion (although this does depend upon just how many pools we end up with).

I can see if we ended up with only a very small number of pools that controlled the vast majority of forging power then you would have a very real potential threat but if our forging power is spread much better than that then I don't see it is an issue (it would require a lot of different parties to collude and the chances of that would become lower according to the number of said parties).

Another idea does spring to mind though - maybe we should "only apply the penalty to forgers controlling more than x% of the stake" (unless we are worried about collusion happening between potentially thousands of smaller forging nodes). This would protect against the largest stake holders colluding whilst giving smaller stake holders more incentive to forge.

The most important thing we have to consider here is the "health of the network".

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: BitcoinForumator on February 24, 2014, 08:29:59 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:25:17 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:19:03 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:13:13 AM

Quote from: farl4web on February 24, 2014, 08:10:03 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 1 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

When is the change of fee planned to 0.1 NXT? I think if NXT is been calculated more in decimals behind the comma(point), 1 NXT will get more valuable. Pure
psychological.

sorry

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 100 Nxt = 100 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

Account 100000 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
52,6 blocs per year with 100000 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 100000 Nxt will generate 5256 Nxt = 5256 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

CONCLUSIONS

is clear that as the value of Nxt respect Fiat up

is smaller nodes may hold but the limit will always be the
opportunity cost of the money referred to immobilize one year..

BitcoinForumator

legendary

Activity: 1120

Merit: 1000

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:25:17 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:19:03 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:13:13 AM

Quote from: farl4web on February 24, 2014, 08:10:03 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 1 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

When is the change of fee planned to 0.1 NXT? I think if NXT is been calculated more in decimals behind the comma(point), 1 NXT will get more valuable. Pure
psychological.

sorry

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 100 Nxt = 100 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

Account 100000 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
52,6 blocs per year with 100000 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 100000 Nxt will generate 5256 Nxt = 5256 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

CONCLUSIONS

is clear that as the value of fiat respect Nxt up

is smaller nodes may hold but the limit will always be the
opportunity cost of the money referred to immobilize one year..

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:19:03 AM

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 08:13:13 AM

Quote from: farl4web on February 24, 2014, 08:10:03 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 1 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

When is the change of fee planned to 0.1 NXT? I think if NXT is been calculated more in decimals behind the comma(point), 1 NXT will get more valuable. Pure
psychological.

sorry

to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 100 Nxt = 100 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

Account 100000 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
52,6 blocs per year with 100000 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar

Account with 100000 Nxt will generate 5256 Nxt = 5256 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

CONCLUSIONS

is clear that as the value of Nxt respect Fiat up

is smaller nodes may hold but the limit will always be the
opportunity cost of the money referred to immobilize one year..

redsn0w

legendary

Activity: 1778

Merit: 1043

#Free market

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 24, 2014, 08:19:39 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on December 09, 2013, 04:58:22 AM

And the most important feature:
The network can detect which miners don't take part in block generation and act accordingly.

The last point deserves to be described with more details.

Imagine someone is going to do a "51%" attack against Nxt and he owns 90% of all coins. The adversary must stop generating blocks for legit branch coz he won't be able to compete against 100% mining power with his 90%. So he decides to "skip" his turn to generate a block. The rest 10% of the network detects this and penalizes the adversary by setting his mining power to 0 and distributing it among other miners. Now the network is back to 100% power coz everyone got 10-fold increase. The adversary can mine other branch in a secret place but it won't be able to replace the legit branch. Of course, the 2nd branch will have 100% "hashing" power tied to it as well, coz the attacker will get his 90% bumped to 100% but this can be counteracted by some mechanisms of advanced consensus (still not revealed).

As a 100% PoS currency Nxt is protected against a ~~government~~ wealthy entity that could buy/produce a lot of ASICs, with the transparent mining it's protected even against someone buying most of the coins.

So, what does make Nxt a really next-gen currency? Not those nice features like decentralized exchange, or decentralized DNS, or decentralized app store. The transparent mining algo does, and this is only the 1st part of BCNext's plan...

So the idea is, that the above is nonsense?

the thought of CFb is right, it must be said that those who have few nxt is still penalized.

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on December 09, 2013, 04:58:22 AM

And the most important feature:
The network can detect which miners don't take part in block generation and act accordingly.

The last point deserves to be described with more details.

Imagine someone is going to do a "51%" attack against Nxt and he owns 90% of all coins. The adversary must stop generating blocks for legit branch coz he won't be able to compete against 100% mining power with his 90%. So he decides to "skip" his turn to generate a block. The rest 10% of the network detects this and penalizes the adversary by setting his mining power to 0 and distributing it among other miners. Now the network is back to 100% power coz everyone got 10-fold increase. The adversary can mine other branch in a secret place but it won't be able to replace the legit branch. Of course, the 2nd branch will have 100% "hashing" power tied to it as well, coz the attacker will get his 90% bumped to 100% but this can be counteracted by some mechanisms of advanced consensus (still not revealed).

As a 100% PoS currency Nxt is protected against a ~~government~~ wealthy entity that could buy/produce a lot of ASICs, with the transparent mining it's protected even against someone buying most of the coins.

So, what does make Nxt a really next-gen currency? Not those nice features like decentralized exchange, or decentralized DNS, or decentralized app store. The transparent mining algo does, and this is only the 1st part of BCNext's plan...

So the idea is, that the above is nonsense?

Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 710. (Read 2761645 times)