Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 717. (Read 2761650 times)

While they are not helping to secure the network, they are helping to ensure the functionality through providing bandwith. With their bandwidth, downloading the blockchain becomes faster for other clients. When bandwidth runs low, nobody can use Nxt as you would never see your confirmed transaction in the blockchain if you cannot keep up downloading with the blockchain's growth.

Edit: Its also more secure to have a lot of nodes providing bandwidth rather than a few very fast nodes. A few nodes can be tricked into providing false blockchains easier than a loarge number of independent nodes. So more nodes equal more security.

My friend,

As Ciyam told running server is different with just forging!
I have 4 Servers with Valid IP that Securing the network. But I can forge on my Handset without Valid IP.
Why should one like me put 4 servers that cost at least monthly $10 each for NEX Network?

Please be realist and not Idealist! Economy have it's own rules!

- how would you name "miner" in Nxt ? forger ?

Guys, I am still getting these weird errors running 0.7.6 nrs

[2014-02-24 05:52:38.960] DEBUG: Failed to accept block 10121 height 73855 received from vps4.nxtcrypto.org, blacklisting
[2014-02-24 05:52:41.242] DEBUG: Failed to accept block 10121 height 73855 received from vps1.nxtcrypto.org, blacklisting
[2014-02-24 05:52:46.085] DEBUG: Failed to accept block 10574 height 73856 received from 46.19.137.116, blacklisting
[2014-02-24 05:52:48.726] DEBUG: Failed to accept block 10574 height 73856 received from 46.19.137.116, blacklisting
[2014-02-24 05:52:50.820] DEBUG: Failed to accept block 10574 height 73856 received from vps8.nxtcrypto.org, blacklisting

It's not a binary sort of thing we are talking about here. What we are talking about here is the more people are participating, or to be more specific, the more stake that is participating honestly, the more secure each confirmation is. We would need VERY few people forging and a lot of very bad people attacking for nxt to be entirely broken. What we are discussing here, what is the better more relevant question, is how to properly weigh the monetary cost of transactions against the security cost of less secure confirmations while additionally taking into consideration the cost of lost hard drive space resulting from blockchain spam resulting from low transaction fees and idea of the value of stress testing. its way more complex than "What is the minimum percentage of users who need to run nodes for everything to work?" and this is not at all the right question to be asking.

*edit* also like ciyam pointed out, running nodes should be differentiated from forging.

believe it or not, most ppl run Nxt client for fee.

So the only reason you want to   "forge" is because you want transactions fees but you don't care about securing the network where you have $7000 invested?

Weird.

I doubt everyone else thinks the same way.

I still suggest drop the transactions fees low.

That's the best solution

Everyone with 50,000 Nxt has like once in a week chance of forging? If there are are 1000 such accounts that are forging outside of pools, they will have a pretty significant role in securing the network.  

Is joining a pool going to be something that is transparent within the Client, where you can basically "set it and forget it" and not think about it, or is it something that is going to require fucking around with the command line or installing strange things on your computer?
If it's the latter, most people are just not going to bother. If it's this hard to explain to us here, imagine how hard it;s going to be to explain to John Q Fumblefingers.

Agree with CIYAM,

I'm running 4 servers now!
But if it continues this way, may stop all!
I have more than $7000 in NXT but received 1 NXT per week after several weeks!!! It's really frustrating and community should consider it!

I know that it's about 430 peers on NXT Network now but what happening after frustration? God knows!

Network may not shape correctly and securely if this continues!

Just IMHO!

Not only is there no reward but under the currently proposed TF there is actually *zero* benefit (i.e. they are not helping to secure the network at all).

+1

Because most people don't bother with doing things that don't have some benefit for them. Most non-tech savvy people I know turn off their computers when they aren't using it. If you told every Bitcoin user that it would be really helpful if they ran a small program on their computer but that they'd receive nothing in return for doing it, only a very small percentage of them would actually do it.

A good comparison might be Bittorrent. The hard-core users run an open node and let people download things off their hard-drive 24/7 because they want to support the concept, while most people just leech, only opening up their torrent program when they want something and then immediately X'in out of it once they have it.

If that sort of arrangement is enough to make NXT network and TF work, then fine. I can't seem to get a straight answer though if that is enough.

If you're asking a majority of users to run open nodes for little to no reward I can almost guarantee failure.

Maybe I need to draw a picture (as clearly people are just not getting this).

We are going to have this situation after TF is implemented as currently planned:


Where 1/x is each pool's chance of forging the next block (once we have pools then non-pool nodes are going to be a very small minority).

You are only going to send you tx to one of those pools - you are not going to bother sending it anywhere else as you want your "instant confirmation" (and who wouldn't?).

So the network is being *secured* (meaning forging blocks not just passing packets) by a total of "x" nodes.

Clear enough yet?

People keep stating this like it's a fact. What if enough people don't do this? What is the minimum percentage of users who need to run nodes for everything to work? Most people are not rational actors, especially once NXT is operating on a grand scale.
It makes me nervous that no one who is in the know has ever answered this questions when I ask it. It just gets ignored and glossed over.

Of course people can run a node with zero chance of getting any forging reward but they are not helping with confirmations (so they are not really helping to *secure* the network at all).

Understand with TF we are actually going to be directly sending our requests to probably 1 of x servers (where I expect x will not be a large number) owned by pools (so the rest of the network is actually not doing anything apart from trying to "keep up").

The approach should be to reduce the transaction fee. People who are invested in Nxt will still run full NRS software just to protect the network, but there would be no incentive for pools as the fees would be too low to even bother.  I suspect vast majority of people who own $1000+ worth of Nxt would still run it, not to make money but  for keeping the network (thus their investment) secure.

 Unlike Bitcoin, running a Nxt node doesn't cost anything. If someone has Internet connection and old unused computer, and has $1000+ worth of Nxt, why not run a node?
 

good job.

I think the asset exchange idea is awesome, but sometimes I think the developers are putting all their eggs in this basket, which is probably going to be kind of niche thing and somewhat of a small market. Most people have no interest in organizing an internet business or investing in online start-ups and all the things that the asset exchange will be able to do. It will be a thing for businesspeople and the internet savvy but not really something for the everyday joe who just wants to pay a nickel to read an article in the new york times or buy some shoes online without using a credit card.

The alternative currency that comes out on top of this coin-boom is going to be the one that people recognize and use to easily send money from point a to point b. There will be one currency that has the name recognition of Google that everyone knows is the one to acquire and utilize. Right now that's clearly Bitcoin, which is actually quite inadequate for the task because of the slow confirmation times.


There's a tremendous opportunity to take the lead here for a currency that works better than bitcoin. POS is the technology that can do that. NXT could become the new Google of alternative-currency but if it does it will be first and foremost because it does what Bitcoin does better than Bitcoin does it. Asset Exchanges, Decentralized Exchanges and Colored Coins are cool and revolutionary ideas (Ripple actually has a bit of a head start on NXT in this area) but being able to send micro-transactions over the internet anonymously is really still the Pièce de résistance of what is really going to attract people in droves.

In regards to forging we actually have a dilemma - so let's look at it carefully:

Current approach of PoS with "pools" will lead to exactly the same situation as Bitcoin (a few pools controlling the entire network). This is okay from a performance perspective (you'd expect them to be running great hardware) but it is not okay from the perspective of decentralisation. If governments decide to seize the servers of the pools then Nxt could literally disappear.

The approach I have suggested will probably not be "botnet" proof - but at the end of the day does that matter?

At least it is decentralised - and if everyone is arguing that the whole "forging" thing is something we shouldn't even talk about (as it is not an incentive) then why not let the botnets help us to secure the network?

To use a Simpsons style quote:

I for one welcome our new botnet overlords!