NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 714.

sepehr

sr. member

Activity: 399

Merit: 250

Cryptocurrency Evangelist

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:47:43 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:36:23 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 03:25:41 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:22:56 AM

I see no problem here. If a part of the stake becomes seized then the network will start forging with another part.

The question is "forging with what"?

If let's say 100 powerful machines are shut down by an authority and the majority of stake holders are "rich old men" who aren't that technically savvy then you are now running a network of maybe a few thousand desktop computers (or even less powerful devices) that are run by hobbyists and that is not going to do 1000+ TPS.

I am not saying the network would *die* but that it would be *seriously damaged* in terms of the TPS it could process and that in itself could cause *panic*.

1000 tps processing requires mid-level hosting hardware. Still see no problem.

After discussing this issue with CIYAM Open I got that we indeed have a problem here. If users will just lease their power and forget then one day Nxt network may die.

Sorry for my previous mistake, my English is not good enough to get some ideas clearly.

It's my pleasure to see this! It showed me that the community have the ability to solve the problems and cover mistakes before it's going to be Big problems.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: evanxxx on February 24, 2014, 05:01:52 AM

I think we can possibly solve this by making it more profitable to be a service provider than forging and the reward should be equal for different service providers instead of being biased to those with powerful machines and massive resource, thus everyone has the incentive to be a service provider and the service would be provided in a distributed way.

This makes a lot of sense.

rickyjames

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: salsacz on February 24, 2014, 04:43:34 AM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 24, 2014, 04:26:32 AM

Quote from: salsacz on February 24, 2014, 04:05:57 AM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 23, 2014, 07:23:42 PM

Quote from: salsacz on February 23, 2014, 06:41:04 PM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 23, 2014, 04:52:40 PM

My intention is to put one of these trifold brochures on every chair in the three speaker areas at the Texas Bitcoin Conference early in the morning on March 6

if you do this, organizator will collect them all in 5 minutes. It is not allowed to use conf areas for non paid ads

Then I will just have to figure out another way to distribute them once they are printed. Perhaps I can arrange for (cute female?) handout personnel at the doors when they open. Certainly we need printed handout materials for the four conferences we are going to have reps at over the next six weeks. My request for funding stands.

I think in April (New York, Toronto) Nxt will look so different, that we will need new materials and text at that time. nxt.org, new branding resources from Damelon's friends..

So how much would cost a cute female? Who will hire her for all events and will she have tickets also to get in?

I am more concerned about whether or not your NXT marketing fund will pay as a conference expense for any handout brochures at Texas Bitcoin Conference. Cost is 2000 for $526 (10K NXT) or 5000 for $723 (14K NXT). Basically $197 more gets 3000 extra brochures for San Francisco. My NXT account for receiving these funds and allowing me to pay the printer this week would be 16092180239932658439. Your decision?

We are already paying $1250 for Texas, why do you need 2000 brochures? Enterpreneur space for brochures costs $2500. 200 brochures for person-person handout should be more than enough. Business cards are more important

I will take that as a no for funding of brochures.

I am not quite sure just what NXT is getting for the $1000 you paid Paul Snow of Texas Bitcoin Conference after you talked with him for so long in Berlin. I have not heard from him a single time despite repeated emails to him. I am not a speaker in any capacity at the event, but Vitalik Buterin of Ethereum is. Here is the official schedule:

http://texasbitcoinconference.com/schedule

I'll do my best to shake some hands for NXT while Vitalik speaks to thousands about Etherium. Please forward 5K NXT for the $250 covering my door pass to 16092180239932658439. Thanks.

evanxxx

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:47:43 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:36:23 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 03:25:41 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:22:56 AM

I see no problem here. If a part of the stake becomes seized then the network will start forging with another part.

The question is "forging with what"?

If let's say 100 powerful machines are shut down by an authority and the majority of stake holders are "rich old men" who aren't that technically savvy then you are now running a network of maybe a few thousand desktop computers (or even less powerful devices) that are run by hobbyists and that is not going to do 1000+ TPS.

I am not saying the network would *die* but that it would be *seriously damaged* in terms of the TPS it could process and that in itself could cause *panic*.

1000 tps processing requires mid-level hosting hardware. Still see no problem.

After discussing this issue with CIYAM Open I got that we indeed have a problem here. If users will just lease their power and forget then one day Nxt network may die.

Sorry for my previous mistake, my English is not good enough to get some ideas clearly.

I think we can possibly solve this by making it more profitable to be a service provider than forging and the reward should be equal for different service providers instead of being biased to those with powerful machines and massive resource, thus everyone has the incentive to be a service provider and the service would be provided in a distributed way.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Just to let you guys know that I have now created a Project on CIYAM Open for Nxt AT (https://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20140224094608613000&ident=M100V136&chksum=eafb491f).

Any funds donated to the Project's (sorry but indeed it is a Bitcoin) address will be forwarded *under my control* to Project Tasks (so if you don't trust me then do not send funds to that address).

Another address can be found under the Project Area "General" (the only area at this stage) here: https://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20140224094608613000&ident=M100V136&chksum=eafb491f and any funds sent to that address will be forwarded under Klee's control to Project Tasks.

There are no tasks created yet but that will come soon and if the funding committee are interested in creating Bitcoin addresses for any Project Tasks then they will be in charge of forwarding those funds to the successful "dibber".

Don't know what a "dibber" is? Just go to https://ciyam.org/open and read the blog entry.

zorke

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: zorke on February 23, 2014, 01:54:29 PM

Quote from: MadCow on February 23, 2014, 01:46:00 PM

Quote from: naurisdede on February 23, 2014, 01:38:25 PM

Thank you dear Mr. Stackeholder, what a generous move!! Cheesy

This is so cool!

I think we would all appreciate if more big stakeholders did what 7017504655955743955 has done today, especially top 50 accounts which are all from 5 million to 50 million NXT.

To them to spread 100,000 like 7017504655955743955 did would be nothing but this would show even more greatness of this community and this project.

In the end, doing something like this would just raise the worth of NXT in a long run and paradoxically their main stash would be worth much more than this little part that they have possibly disbursed to this hard working community.

Just something to think about.

Once again BRAVO for 7017504655955743955!!

It would be nice if there was a multisend feature in the client. If I could line up all the addresses of hard working nxt'ers and one-click send a given amount, say 1000nxt (as in each would get 1000) I'd be very inclined to give more regular donations in just this way. Sitting at the computer and putting in 50 or how ever many transactions is a PITA.

Yes I agree that this is troublesome.

2Kool4Skewl

sr. member

Activity: 644

Merit: 250

Quote from: drsnuggles on February 23, 2014, 05:15:39 AM

Quote from: 2Kool4Skewl on February 23, 2014, 04:54:13 AM

A social credit system allows users to establish credit lines between each other for a certain asset. Debt can be transfered down a chain of credit lines.
...
LETSystems are interest free local credit systems. Each local credit network has a central bookkeeper who establishes new credit lines and keeps track of users' balances. When a new member joins, they establish a credit line to the bookkeeper and the bookkeeper grants them a credit line. The credit line the bookkeeper establishes with them is the amount of credit they have with the community. This is the amount the new member is allowed to owe the other members of the network.

So there is a banker named bookkeeper. You create debt. It's interest free, but there is an asset bound to the dept. So what happens if you don't pay the debt? I suppose your asset is gone. Wasn't the idea of bitcoin to stop with giving debt to people who don't have money?

Quote

For example, Bob, Charlie and Alice are members of the local LETSystem. Bob needs to go on a job interview, but he can't because he has to watch his children. Bob is broke, but he needs a babysitter. Bob knows Alice babysits and is part of his LETSystem. Alice babysits for Bob and he pays her $10 credit. Alice now has a +$10 community credit and Bob now has a -$10 community credit. Charlie's car is broken and he doesn't have any money to repair it. Bob repairs Charlie's car for $40. Bob now has a community credit of +$30 and Charlie now owes the community $40. Bob gets paid even though Charlie didn't have the money.

This only seems useful for those who have zero amount of money. If in your example Bob would have had 10 dollar, no special system with debt and trust would be needed. If Bob has children, but no 10 dollar, something else is wrong in his life where free credit is not the solution.

Sorry for being critical, but I'm not really convinced this system improves the situation of poor people.

The bookkeeper is not a banker. He has no assets. He acts like an administrator. The community credit is backed by only by good faith. If a community member accrues a high debt level and doesn't repay the community, he is removed from the LETSystem. It is also the bookkeeper's job to encourage members who have too high or too low of a credit balance to equalize their debt.

Imo, interest free debt isn't a bad idea depending on the application.

salsacz

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 504

We are already paying $1250 for Texas, why do you need 2000 brochures? Enterpreneur space for brochures costs $2500. 200 brochures for person-person handout should be more than enough. Business cards are more important

rickyjames

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: salsacz on February 24, 2014, 04:05:57 AM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 23, 2014, 07:23:42 PM

Quote from: salsacz on February 23, 2014, 06:41:04 PM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 23, 2014, 04:52:40 PM

My intention is to put one of these trifold brochures on every chair in the three speaker areas at the Texas Bitcoin Conference early in the morning on March 6

if you do this, organizator will collect them all in 5 minutes. It is not allowed to use conf areas for non paid ads

Then I will just have to figure out another way to distribute them once they are printed. Perhaps I can arrange for (cute female?) handout personnel at the doors when they open. Certainly we need printed handout materials for the four conferences we are going to have reps at over the next six weeks. My request for funding stands.

I think in April (New York, Toronto) Nxt will look so different, that we will need new materials and text at that time. nxt.org, new branding resources from Damelon's friends..

So how much would cost a cute female? Who will hire her for all events and will she have tickets also to get in?

I am more concerned about whether or not your NXT marketing fund will pay as a conference expense for any handout brochures at Texas Bitcoin Conference. Cost is 2000 for $526 (10K NXT) or 5000 for $723 (14K NXT). Basically $197 more gets 3000 extra brochures for San Francisco. My NXT account for receiving these funds and allowing me to pay the printer this week would be 16092180239932658439. Your decision?

salsacz

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 504

Quote from: Mario123 on February 24, 2014, 04:17:12 AM

Dear community, please discuss the following charity idea:

http://nxtproject.org

I like 10k Nxt idea. + I like waiting time, I think it is very stupid to pay to the charities right now in current exchange rate, Nxt price will scyrocket soon

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 04:22:14 AM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 24, 2014, 04:16:21 AM

My gut feeling is that forging NXT will never be profitable for anybody.

I think it is going to be profitable for a few pools mostly and I predict that in the future most forging power will be locked up in ATs that act as "interest bearing accounts".

It is up to the community to make sure that we don't just end up with a small number of pools and a few hundred hobbyists.

my proposal is to just give in to the pools forging fees rights. Not forging power. Not funds

forging power and funds stay in bob account

forging fees rights stay in pool if bob wants.

if bob forge and forging fees rights are in the pool bob must split forging fees with other people in the pool proportionally with amount of funds in this moment.

the pools are created automatically by the network grouping the accounts. for example a size of 100000 nxt this would lead to forge every 2 to 3 days that is a reasonable value

I think for that direction is the right solution.

with this solution the network will always be extremely decentralized and every body have the same opportunities to forge.

you just have to adjust the transaction fee for the annual return to forge all year continuously is equivalent to the cost of maintaining the node. if for example it is estimated that with 10000 nodes is enough then we must assess how much maintaining 10000 nodes for a year and evaluate the number of transactions in the year and adjust the fees.

For example

John have 90000Nxt
Mary have 9900 Nxt
Bob Have 100 Nxt

Total 100000 Nxt

1440 blocs per day
52.6 blocs per year with 100000 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: rickyjames on February 24, 2014, 04:16:21 AM

My gut feeling is that forging NXT will never be profitable for anybody.

I think it is going to be profitable for a few pools mostly and I predict that in the future most forging power will be locked up in ATs that act as "interest bearing accounts" (http://ciyam.org/nxt/nxt_dormant.html).

It is up to the community to make sure that we don't just end up with a small number of pools and a few hundred hobbyists.

Mario123

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Dear community, please discuss the following charity idea:

http://nxtproject.org

We could reach many early adopters of Nxt (we all are right now) with this project, since there is some economic thinking behind it. But maybe, there is an error in reasoning. Some overlooked problems. Or you really like the idea.

Please express your opinions on this before we put this project to market or just delete and forget about it.

rickyjames

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: abctc on February 24, 2014, 04:10:31 AM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 24, 2014, 03:55:00 AM

..
THIS is why I pushed for there to be a separate infrastructure fund committee, to figure this stuff out ahead of time and prepare for it.

- infrastructure fund will lead to centralization. It is a task for developers (like BCNext, C-f-B and CIYAM) to figure this stuff out and make the forging profitable for many people, not only to those sponsored by fund.

My gut feeling is that forging NXT will never be profitable for anybody. Somebody show me I'm full of crap.

The real centralization that is going to occur is that as more and more people become interested in NXT, more and more NXT forging power will become concentrated in exchanges like Cryptsy. If anybody is going to make a profit forging NXT, it's going to be Cryptsy when they finally bring NXT trading online.

Yeah, yeah, I know that decentralized exchanges will kick in after that. NXT and its network structure is going to go through several incarnations. all of them are goin to have to work with a seamless handoff between them. And we cannot forsee this evolution, just try to manage it as best we can as it happens. In a decentralized way. This should be very interesting to watch, and quite a challenge.

The ultimate success of NXT is far from guaranteed. It is a currency whose support and even existence depends on a sense of civic responsibility, not just the pure greed behind Bitcoin mining.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: abctc on February 24, 2014, 04:10:31 AM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 24, 2014, 03:55:00 AM

..
THIS is why I pushed for there to be a separate infrastructure fund committee, to figure this stuff out ahead of time and prepare for it.

- infrastructure fund will lead to centralization. It is a task for developers (like BCNext, C-f-B and CIYAM) to figure this stuff out and make the forging profitable for many people, not only to those sponsored by fund.

It is up to the community as a whole to think about this potential threat (as that is all it is btw) and decide whether we are wanting to make technical changes or to simply work out practical ways to protect our network.

To paraphrase something that CfB said to me: "BCNext gave us a knife - it's up to us not to accidentally cut ourselves".

abctc

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1038

Quote from: rickyjames on February 24, 2014, 03:55:00 AM

..
THIS is why I pushed for there to be a separate infrastructure fund committee, to figure this stuff out ahead of time and prepare for it.

- infrastructure fund will lead to centralization. It is a task for developers (like BCNext, C-f-B and CIYAM) to figure this stuff out and make the forging profitable for many people, not only to those sponsored by fund.

Eadeqa

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: salsacz on February 24, 2014, 04:05:57 AM

So how much would cost a cute female? Who will hire her for all events and will she have a tickets also to get in?

Does she have to know anything about Nxt?

This isn't a problem, as long as she only have to dress flirty.

Contact me

salsacz

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 504

Quote from: rickyjames on February 23, 2014, 07:23:42 PM

Quote from: salsacz on February 23, 2014, 06:41:04 PM

Quote from: rickyjames on February 23, 2014, 04:52:40 PM

My intention is to put one of these trifold brochures on every chair in the three speaker areas at the Texas Bitcoin Conference early in the morning on March 6

if you do this, organizator will collect them all in 5 minutes. It is not allowed to use conf areas for non paid ads

Then I will just have to figure out another way to distribute them once they are printed. Perhaps I can arrange for (cute female?) handout personnel at the doors when they open. Certainly we need printed handout materials for the four conferences we are going to have reps at over the next six weeks. My request for funding stands.

I think in April (New York, Toronto) Nxt will look so different, that we will need new materials and text at that time. nxt.org, new branding resources from Damelon's friends..

So how much would cost a cute female? Who will hire her for all events and will she have tickets also to get in?

igmaca

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: igmaca on February 24, 2014, 03:49:57 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 03:25:41 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 24, 2014, 03:22:56 AM

I see no problem here. If a part of the stake becomes seized then the network will start forging with another part.

The question is "forging with what"?

If let's say 100 powerful machines are shut down by an authority and the majority of stake holders are "rich old men" who aren't that technically savvy then you are now running a network of maybe a few thousand desktop computers (or even less powerful devices) that are run by hobbyists and that is not going to do 1000+ TPS.

I am not saying the network would *die* but that it would be *seriously damaged* in terms of the TPS it could process and that in itself could cause *panic*.

if only we give fees rights the same network could go automatic grouping the nodes that want to get to forge for example a size of 100000 nxt

this would lead to forge every 2 to 3 days that is a reasonable value

that is to say

my proposal is to just give in to the pools forging fees rights. Not forging power. Not funds

forging power and funds stay in bob account

forging fees rights stay in pool if bob wants.

if bob forge and forging fees rights are in the pool bob must split forging fees with other people in the pool proportionally with amount of funds in this moment.

the pools are created automatically by the network grouping the accounts. for example a size of 100000 nxt this would lead to forge every 2 to 3 days that is a reasonable value

I think for that direction is the right solution.

The number of pools and the size of them I reach an optimum value beyond which no interest be bigger.

with this solution the network will always be extremely decentralized and every body have the same opportunities to forge.

you just have to adjust the transaction fee for the annual return to forge all year continuously is equivalent to the cost of maintaining the node. if for example it is estimated that with 10000 nodes is enough then we must assess how much maintaining 10000 nodes for a year and evaluate the number of transactions in the year and adjust the fees.

rickyjames

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

NXT FUNDING COMMITTEE VOTE IS COMING MARCH 1

Remaining eligible nominees with as-yet undeclared intentions (PM me if you want off this list):

^[GS]^, 2Kool4Skewl, Arckam_(frmelin), bitcoinpaul, buybitcoinscanada
ChuckOne, Cointropolis_JustabitTime, Come-from-Beyond
Damelon, davethetrousers, drevil, EvilDave, ferment, Fry, hughmanwho, Jean-Luc,
jl777, Klee, landomata, laowai80, msin, mww
nexern, opticalcarrier, Pandaisftw, PeercoinEnthusiast, pinarello, Pouncer, Ricot, salsacz
SecondLeo, smaragda, Uniqueorn, VanBreuk, ZeroTheGreat

Something Zahlen said: A candidate does not need to be good at writing English. Some candidates may not have English as their mother tongue. If you're voting, don't confuse lots of writing for ability to judge the worth of a project. Remember that ultimately the committee's job is to decide which projects get funded.

If you are on this list and want to be on a NXT funding committee, go here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5280476

Background:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5280786

Good luck to these nominees who have declared themselves candidates:

NXTmarketingfund: allwelder, Damelon, Mario123, Asian Prepper, joefox, brooklynbct, CoinTropolis_NiftyNikel
NXTtechdevfund: EmoneyRu, Anon136, l8orre, abuelau, chanc3r
NXTinfrastructurefund: rickyjames

Yeah, you may have seen this before. I'll be putting it up every ten pages or so. It's one of those "legitimate, transparent process" things.

Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 714. (Read 2761650 times)