NXT/NEM or Monero/Bytecoin? - page 5.

devphp

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Quote from: Keyboard-Mash on June 10, 2014, 08:52:43 AM

they're still susceptable by flat out purchasing by a centralized banking system.

Not really, before they purchase anything close to 50% of the PoS currency, the price will shoot through the roof and this PoS currency becomes world reserve currency at that point. Unlike PoW currency, where they can buy enough hardware for much less money and destroy the PoW currency or flat out ban mining/force it to regulation since it's all becoming centralized mining now in 2-3 places.

devphp

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Quote from: Keyboard-Mash on June 10, 2014, 08:52:43 AM

central banks have been around for many years and I'm still alive

Only the last 100 years, and just look at the mess the world is in! Yeah, you may be still alive, slavery is a form of life too.

Keyboard-Mash

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Quote from: devphp on June 10, 2014, 08:00:16 AM

Quote from: Keyboard-Mash on June 10, 2014, 07:25:59 AM

Why won't PoW last long?

When all the mining power becomes concentrated in 2-3 large mining corporations, which is inevitable given how the process unfolds, how is this different from centralized money printing by central banks? PoW will last another year or two before that happens. When only 2-3 large corporations control processing of all transactions, they will be regulated and dependant on regulators' decisions and rules, and this becomes the same as any fiat currency, except this currency is produced by solving blocks, but it will be far from the idea of decentralization that crypto currency came up with.

I see where you're coming from, but central banks have been around for many years and I'm still alive ... certainly many more years than "another year or two" .. hopefully Wink

. PoW at worst invites central banks to assume power .. by taking control of most mining resources. PoS at worst makes the original stakeholders a new "central banK" whether or not they were one before, where they're still susceptable by flat out purchasing by a centralized banking system. It's little more than clenching your cheeks and hoping for the best .. anything else is speculation. I think I like both attempts.

PoW gives me the hope that there's a control based on some physical link to the real world, and PoS gives me the hope that maybe someone can do better than a centralized bank. Both seem like a lottery increasing my overall chances to win.

I've seen some interesting proposals involving both PoW and PoS that catch my interest .. MC2 being one of them. Any thoughts on that? I think I remember you favoring NXT, but what do you think of hybrid currencies?

mrvegad

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Quote from: devphp on June 10, 2014, 08:00:16 AM

Quote from: Keyboard-Mash on June 10, 2014, 07:25:59 AM

Why won't PoW last long?

When all the mining power becomes concentrated in 2-3 large mining corporations, which is inevitable given how the process unfolds, how is this different from centralized money printing by central banks? PoW will last another year or two before that happens. When only 2-3 large corporations control processing of all transactions, they will be regulated and dependant on regulators' decisions and rules, and this becomes the same as any fiat currency, except this currency is produced by solving blocks, but it will be far from the idea of decentralization that crypto currency came up with.

+1

devphp

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Quote from: Keyboard-Mash on June 10, 2014, 07:25:59 AM

Why won't PoW last long?

When all the mining power becomes concentrated in 2-3 large mining corporations, which is inevitable given how the process unfolds, how is this different from centralized money printing by central banks? PoW will last another year or two before that happens. When only 2-3 large corporations control processing of all transactions, they will be regulated and dependant on regulators' decisions and rules, and this becomes the same as any fiat currency, except this currency is produced by solving blocks, but it will be far from the idea of decentralization that crypto currency came up with.

Keyboard-Mash

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Quote from: sumantso on June 10, 2014, 07:22:16 AM

I don't think PoW will last long. It will be here for some time because of the vested interests and all the big investments already made, but eventually will be replaced by some good PoS (there are already a few candidates).

Why won't PoW last long? Where did you come up with that idea? It seems like you're thinking PoS will "win it out" ... but why do you think it's a battle for one "candidate"?

sumantso

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Quote from: jabo38 on June 10, 2014, 07:17:41 AM

People here have made a good point. Spend a lot of money on a miner and electricity and get bitcoins, or spend a lot of money and get coins made in POS. For a person not used to crypto, the whole mining thing is confusing at the least and totally unnecessary. Why not just buy the coins directly instead of doings some crazy POW work around?

Month after month the top 10 fills up with more POS. By next year, there might be only one POW coin left on the top 10. A lonely giant at the top.

Again, I ask you to show me any POW that is even half as slick and half as many options as NXT. (except the original)

mining is so 2012-2013

I don't think PoW will last long. It will be here for some time because of the vested interests and all the big investments already made, but eventually will be replaced by some good PoS (there are already a few candidates).

jabo38

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mining is so 2012-2013

People here have made a good point. Spend a lot of money on a miner and electricity and get bitcoins, or spend a lot of money and get coins made in POS. For a person not used to crypto, the whole mining thing is confusing at the least and totally unnecessary. Why not just buy the coins directly instead of doings some crazy POW work around?

Month after month the top 10 fills up with more POS. By next year, there might be only one POW coin left on the top 10. A lonely giant at the top.

Again, I ask you to show me any POW that is even half as slick and half as many options as NXT. (except the original)

mining is so 2012-2013

sumantso

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Quote from: darkota on June 08, 2014, 04:36:43 PM

Quote from: Este Nuno on June 08, 2014, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: -Greed- on June 08, 2014, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: Este Nuno on June 08, 2014, 03:41:56 PM

Quote from: -Greed- on June 08, 2014, 03:28:13 PM

NXT and Monero, these two are completely different coins and they cannot be compared IMO.

Quote from: Este Nuno on June 08, 2014, 03:10:56 PM

Which one has a better chance of becoming a successful alternative to btc/ltc?

I'm sure Darkcoin or(and) Zerocoin/Zerocash will overcome Bitcoin someday.

Why can two different coin technologies not be compared? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each tech?

Monero is maintained for anonymous transactions but it has some flaws in its code and other problems like being botnet raped.

NXT is the first pure PoS coin written from scratch. It brings asset exchange and some other features but suffers from unfair distribution.

Which one is better and how to compare them is up to you.

What sort of flaws have been discovered in the code for Monero?

I do know that NXT is mainly criticized for the initial distribution of it's coinbase. But if the technology is superior that doesn't mean that another coin based off NXT couldn't come along and solve that problem. If NXT's PoS system is superior to the CryptoNote PoW system that's vulnerable to botnets then that's a big plus for NXT.

NXT is a scam. No matter how you do it, distributing coins via PoS is unfair and will always be unfair. Those who get in on the "IPO" are the ones who always come out richer.

I think of NXT not as a currency....but as a platform to trade currencies, like Ripple.

...as opposed to distributing to big firms who waste electricity to earn the coins.

devphp

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Quote from: Este Nuno on June 10, 2014, 06:21:14 AM

It's actually kind of interesting how the community seems to be ignorant to the fact that bitcoin and other coins are fundamentally distributed in a similar if not even less fair way since you need both the technical knowledge to mine as well as access to affordable electricity.

Well, not the entire community is ignorant for sure. With each passing day more and more of the community is getting it that PoS is the future, just look at the number of PoW/PoS hybrids and pure PoS alts that popped out in 2014. There is just this old school miners mentality taking its roots a few years ago that is hard for people to overcome in their minds, but progress cannot be stopped, change is inevitable. Adapt yourself or die out, this is a basic natural principle.

Este Nuno

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amarha

Quote from: devphp on June 10, 2014, 03:25:31 AM

Quote from: Este Nuno on June 10, 2014, 03:15:09 AM

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning?

They can't explain that. Suppose, someone wants to get into bitcoin now, or any other coin from the top 10, they have to spend money to buy, can't mine anything with their normal laptop or even a gamer's computer. You have to buy either ASICs or buy coins at exchanges. But it's not fair! Someone could mine bitcoin with their office computer for years before it got to this stage! So, yeah, mostly people are pissed off because they weren't in the IPO for PoS coins, but they can't voice their complaint openly. Their ego prevents them from eating their pride and buying at exchanges at low prices while they last. They end up buying later at a higher price or not buying at all and missing the opportunity.

It's all simple risk vs reward with both systems I guess. There doesn't seem to be any tangible difference between PoW and PoS initial distribution other than PoS clearly being the more advanced and efficient tech.

Before this thread I just kind of assumed all this talk about NXT ect having major problems with the distribution method had something behind it. But it's really just fundamental capitalism, the capital takes the risk of funding and is rewarded proportionally. Just as people who choose to mine a new PoW coin are risking their time and their electricity.

It's actually kind of interesting how the community seems to be ignorant to the fact that bitcoin and other coins are fundamentally distributed in a similar if not even less fair way since you need both the technical knowledge to mine as well as access to affordable electricity.

devphp

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Quote from: Este Nuno on June 10, 2014, 03:15:09 AM

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning?

They can't explain that. Suppose, someone wants to get into bitcoin now, or any other coin from the top 10, they have to spend money to buy, can't mine anything with their normal laptop or even a gamer's computer. You have to buy either ASICs or buy coins at exchanges. But it's not fair! Someone could mine bitcoin with their office computer for years before it got to this stage! So, yeah, mostly people are pissed off because they weren't in the IPO for PoS coins, but they can't voice their complaint openly. Their ego prevents them from eating their pride and buying at exchanges at low prices while they last. They end up buying later at a higher price or not buying at all and missing the opportunity.

TaunSew

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Quote from: Este Nuno on June 10, 2014, 03:15:09 AM

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning? The main issue seems to be sockpuppets, which is understandable, but other than that is there an obvious distinction I'm missing?

I'm not a miner, so to me when I want to invest in a coin that I feel has potential I'm buying in at some point with my own money. So from my perspective, it doesn't really matter whether the initial stake was created by PoW or distributed some other way. PoW coins seem to be in the best interest of people who have already invested in mining equipment, but to people who haven't it generally seems like a waste of energy.

The way I see it is I could mine early on in a coin if I had the knowledge and the resources to do so, and on the other hand I could buy a stake/sign up early enough in a distribution cycle to receive a stake in a coin. The two methods both reward whoever gets in early, but that seems to be consistent across every cryptocurrency anyway.

Mentioning PoW is a joke - you almost don't see PoW coins coming out anymore - this is in contrast to six months ago when they were still the rage. New PoW coins always get destroyed by a small number of miners who dump in order to pay for their electrical costs and overhead.

Este Nuno

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amarha

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning? The main issue seems to be sockpuppets, which is understandable, but other than that is there an obvious distinction I'm missing?

I'm not a miner, so to me when I want to invest in a coin that I feel has potential I'm buying in at some point with my own money. So from my perspective, it doesn't really matter whether the initial stake was created by PoW or distributed some other way. PoW coins seem to be in the best interest of people who have already invested in mining equipment, but to people who haven't it generally seems like a waste of energy.

The way I see it is I could mine early on in a coin if I had the knowledge and the resources to do so, and on the other hand I could buy a stake/sign up early enough in a distribution cycle to receive a stake in a coin. The two methods both reward whoever gets in early, but that seems to be consistent across every cryptocurrency anyway.

TaunSew

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NxT may had 73 but only 20 invested the full amount and such an obscure IPO (and no taint analysis) likely meant that 20 contained a lot of sock puppets. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just 5 people and they now own $8+ million each.

That is in contrast to NEM where population statistics were made available and taint analysis was conducted afterwards, without prior announcement, and every stake receives the same amount.

No one can have distribution to every person on the planet - this is a logical fallacy rhetorical argument repeated by NxT bagholders to excuse their messed up distribution and price manipulation. An additional fallacy is trying to compare a distribution of 20 big wallets versus 3000, in a community where most cryptos are still 50%+ premined or (in NxT's case) dominated by less than 30 people. A distribution of 3000 is unprecedented. There are other coins, which started after NEM, which copied NEM's distribution model but implemented an inferior version thereof (not checking for sockpuppets, smaller distribution, et al).

devphp

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Quote from: darkota on June 09, 2014, 06:21:43 PM

No average joe in their right mind, would buy a coin like NXT or NEM, where 99% of the stakeholders are sockpuppet accounts for a few people

haha, now they go even after NEM, which was supposed to be fairly distributed.
Like BCNext said, you just can't distribute fairly to all 7 bln. population of the earth, there will always be someone who was left out. Hence, no matter how fairly it's distributed, someone will always complain it's not fair to him personally, thus it doesn't matter if it's 73 or 4000 initial stakeholders, both systems will be criticized regardless.

Momimaus

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Never back down !!!

Quote from: darkota on June 09, 2014, 06:21:43 PM

Quote from: Momimaus on June 09, 2014, 06:18:14 PM

Quote from: darkota on June 09, 2014, 06:12:22 PM

NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...

Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

hahaha and now you want to tell us POW is the future. And it´s better that miners invest 10k+ for equipment and they get all the money. Grin

Bro POW will never become mainstream. And i don´t mean BTC-mainstream, I mean everyday Joe´s mainstream. NEVER EVER. POW is dying.

Ok, keep thinking that. Would you like to bet about it? No average joe in their right mind, would buy a coin like NXT or NEM, where 99% of the stakeholders are sockpuppet accounts for a few people, so they could dump on the exchange. That's 1000x worse than an instamine or even a hidden premine.

NXT is just a distributed exchange, like Ripple..not an actual currency or anything close.

Hey buying NXT or NEM is just like buying a share on stock exchange. But POW is buying something a computer made for nothing. What do you think Joe is familiar with?

darkota

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Quote from: Momimaus on June 09, 2014, 06:18:14 PM

Quote from: darkota on June 09, 2014, 06:12:22 PM

NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...

Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

hahaha and now you want to tell us POW is the future. And it´s better that miners invest 10k+ for equipment and they get all the money. Grin

Bro POW will never become mainstream. And i don´t mean BTC-mainstream, I mean everyday Joe´s mainstream. NEVER EVER. POW is dying.

Ok, keep thinking that. Would you like to bet about it? No average joe in their right mind, would buy a coin like NXT or NEM, where 99% of the stakeholders are sockpuppet accounts for a few people, so they could dump on the exchange. That's 1000x worse than an instamine or even a hidden premine.

NXT is just a distributed exchange, like Ripple..not an actual currency or anything close.

Momimaus

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Never back down !!!

Quote from: darkota on June 09, 2014, 06:12:22 PM

NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...

Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

hahaha and now you want to tell us POW is the future. And it´s better that miners invest 10k+ for equipment and they get all the money. Grin

Bro POW will never become mainstream. And i don´t mean BTC-mainstream, I mean everyday Joe´s mainstream. NEVER EVER. POW is dying.

darkota

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NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...

Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

Topic: NXT/NEM or Monero/Bytecoin? - page 5. (Read 5164 times)