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Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 127. (Read 723903 times)

newbie
Activity: 47
Merit: 0
Well, I personally like the FRR (I'm lazy...), it was already changed from its previous iteration and surely can be tweaked even more. I wonder which factors to still use other than the current swaps in use to make it react even faster? Weighted average of the fixed price swaps of just the last 24h? 1h? 12h?

After all, the FRR was already "accelerated" significantly after traders complained that the old calculation (which was something like the last 13 days of FRR + current swap rates or so) went down too slow after a spike in demand, making their positions expensive. Since positions now can be comfortably swap their swaps, maybe a move in the opposite direction could be better? Make FRR react slower again?

I wouldn't mind that much if it were going away, then I'd have to invest a day or so to audit, customize + deploy a bot and that's it.
I would think a method along the lines of what 0x3d proposed.  The swap market is not controlled strictly by supply and demand as the leverage limit places a cap on individual demand.  It is controlled more by sentiment of the Bitcoin market; this is what frustrates fixed rate lenders so much.  We can look at the Bitcoin market see the price going up and know that the demand is going to be there we but cannot do anything about it since the FRR is sitting there blindly filling orders based on the mean price from thirty days ago.  Bitfinex used to have a Sentiment indicator.  It was far from accurate but using it would make more sense that using any direct historical data.

As the Sentiment goes up, the rate rises, as it falls so does the FRR.  The problem is how do you measure that?  Fixed rate lenders watch whatever they consider valid market indicators and make a decision based on that, there is some intelligence involved.  The FRR, not so much.  It has to be based on something available and measurable.  Of course, if someone could come up with a reliable method to predict the market it would make more sense to be trading than lending.

I was wondering, what if the FRR used a Delta (the math definition, not the Bitfinex)?  Bitfinex could take the last 15 min Bitcoin price range and matched it to the price change and volume of the historical Bitcoin price data.  The time frame would then be cross referenced to the historical swap data.  The historical rate change would then be used as the basis for modifying, not determining the FRR rate.  If the Bitcoin price is changing, the swap rate would change in a historically predictable way.  If done properly, the rate change could only be gamed by the traders and only to the existent that it agrees with history.

The FRR would rise and fall much more quickly than now but it would stabilize much faster.  It would be a trailing indicator but also be based on past market performance.  I think everyone knows the perils of using the past to predict the future but this method would isolate itself slightly since it is using the near instantaneous (15 minute) price change to determine the corresponding historical swap rate change from a point in time disregarding the surrounding historical market tread.  It couldn't be worse than the current FRR calculation which is based on the most simplistic (and statistically meaningless ) 'average' available.
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1007
Well, I personally like the FRR (I'm lazy...), it was already changed from its previous iteration and surely can be tweaked even more. I wonder which factors to still use other than the current swaps in use to make it react even faster? Weighted average of the fixed price swaps of just the last 24h? 1h? 12h?

After all, the FRR was already "accelerated" significantly after traders complained that the old calculation (which was something like the last 13 days of FRR + current swap rates or so) went down too slow after a spike in demand, making their positions expensive. Since positions now can be comfortably swap their swaps, maybe a move in the opposite direction could be better? Make FRR react slower again?

I wouldn't mind that much if it were going away, then I'd have to invest a day or so to audit, customize + deploy a bot and that's it.
newbie
Activity: 47
Merit: 0
...~25% YEARLY is considered LOW  WTF!?!
Until the market crashes is a way that Bitfinex didn't fathom or that the swap engine cannot keep up with and you lose half your principle.  Everyone seems to forget that bit.

That is the point of a free market. You get to decide at what rate you will take on a certain level of risk, which you also have to quantify. This is exactly why a fund doesn't work, but a market does. I think that our track record at protecting swap providers continues to grow stronger, and as we are growing, it makes sense that people are starting to trust us with more of their money. I think that USD swaps are a pretty great value, even at their current rates, but that is just my opinion.
Yes, but a free market does not have de facto, system forced price point does it?  Something you have steadfastly refused to fully address.  This 'market' is controlled in the same manner that Fed exerts control; by adjusting rate of the single largest pool of money available.  The Fed has the Discount Rate and Bitfinex has the FRR.

I'm not going to debate this anymore.  You originally ask for ideas on how to improve the FRR.  The general conclusion was to best way to fix it was to remove it. It was not the answer Bitfinex wanted.  If I look at the situation from your point of view I can see the somewhat perverse logic in it.  The FRR serves Bitfinex well and hopefully soothes some guilt you have about the treatment of the leveraged traders. 

So be it, the FRR is not going to go away, but, I would ask for some intellectual honesty on Bitfinex's part and quit trying to portray the swap market as even remotely 'free'.
mjr
full member
Activity: 194
Merit: 100
Question from a noob:

what does the "Notify" button do on the "Swaps Currently provided"  catalogue?


Also some thoughts about the FRR

It may be frustrating for some people that the FRR is pushing the swap rates down
but as mjr said yesterday
the goal is not to increase the rates of swaps

USD lenders forget that a "low" rate (~25% YEARLY is considered LOW  WTF!?! Shocked)  is safer in the long run

FRR may need some tweaking but I believe it is a good thing for bitcoin  ( and bitfinex)

Thank you so much for understanding. We are tweaking it now, and have looked at a bunch of different suggestions.

To answer your question, if I understood it correctly, the "Notify" button will notify you if your swap is closed or reduced early.

Let me know if that clears it up.
mjr
full member
Activity: 194
Merit: 100
...~25% YEARLY is considered LOW  WTF!?!
Until the market crashes is a way that Bitfinex didn't fathom or that the swap engine cannot keep up with and you lose half your principle.  Everyone seems to forget that bit.

That is the point of a free market. You get to decide at what rate you will take on a certain level of risk, which you also have to quantify. This is exactly why a fund doesn't work, but a market does. I think that our track record at protecting swap providers continues to grow stronger, and as we are growing, it makes sense that people are starting to trust us with more of their money. I think that USD swaps are a pretty great value, even at their current rates, but that is just my opinion.
mjr
full member
Activity: 194
Merit: 100
I sent an email to support a month ago and still haven't gotten any reply. Has anyone else gotten any replies from support?

Got a reply to one sent about a week ago recently. There seems to be a backlog.

Seems like these are the common issue of Bitfinex support.
As I said before, if you don't enough people to handle this, why not hire more people to make us feel that your are really care about your customers ??


Just so you know, we get hundreds of emails a day. Sometimes one may slip through the cracks, but it is pretty rare overall. Remember, however, that every person who emails support without first posting about it here, and then is satisfied and doesn't write a post saying that his issue was solved satisfactorily make up the vast majority of support emails.

We are looking into the two people who said that they haven't received a response.

By the way, if you post here, the more details (without posting sensitive information) the better...

mjr
full member
Activity: 194
Merit: 100
Hey MJR, care to address the issue I posted earlier about your API?

I think I may have figured this out...

Do you have a balance in DRK/LTC/TH1? The call to balances will only return those assets in which you have a balance.

Hope that helps
newbie
Activity: 47
Merit: 0
...~25% YEARLY is considered LOW  WTF!?!
Until the market crashes is a way that Bitfinex didn't fathom or that the swap engine cannot keep up with and you lose half your principle.  Everyone seems to forget that bit.
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
I sent an email to support a month ago and still haven't gotten any reply. Has anyone else gotten any replies from support?

Got a reply to one sent about a week ago recently. There seems to be a backlog.

Seems like these are the common issue of Bitfinex support.
As I said before, if you don't enough people to handle this, why not hire more people to make us feel that your are really care about your customers ??

hero member
Activity: 577
Merit: 500
Jesus was a (Goddamn) hippy socialist
Question from a noob:

what does the "Notify" button do on the "Swaps Currently provided"  catalogue?


Also some thoughts about the FRR

It may be frustrating for some people that the FRR is pushing the swap rates down
but as mjr said yesterday
the goal is not to increase the rates of swaps

USD lenders forget that a "low" rate (~25% YEARLY is considered LOW  WTF!?! Shocked)  is safer in the long run

FRR may need some tweaking but I believe it is a good thing for bitcoin  ( and bitfinex)
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Same here, email sent a week ago --> no answer yet
hero member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 500
Life is short, practice empathy in your life
I sent an email to support a month ago and still haven't gotten any reply. Has anyone else gotten any replies from support?

Got a reply to one sent about a week ago recently. There seems to be a backlog.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
I sent an email to support a month ago and still haven't gotten any reply. Has anyone else gotten any replies from support?
legendary
Activity: 1121
Merit: 1003
Hello,
I have an account with Bitfinex and was using Bluestacks with Google authenticator. But I had a hard drive crash and need to have the 2 FA reset. So I can log back in and make some trades. I did contact support a couple days ago. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Regards,
Brian
mjr
full member
Activity: 194
Merit: 100
Hello, I have a problem with the API, "POST /balances" call... it only appears to return balances in BTC and USD, no LTC/DRK/TH1.

Is there some extra fuction or parameter I am missing?

I am looking into this. I will get you a response.
newbie
Activity: 47
Merit: 0
we must think of an incentive for Bitfinex to change anything regarding this FRR.
All arguments are of no use when we can´t manage to convince them.


I'm open to suggestion.  Appeals to logic certainly do not seem to be working.

maybe an increase in the 15 % fee they currently take?

1. they choose one of our proposed solutions regarding the FRR
2. we probably enjoy higher interest rates
3. they enjoy higher profit (if they hike the 15 % to 20 % or something similar)

However I´m still uncertain if they would do anything, because the traders would be the
ones who pay for this increase in earnings for bitfinex and the lenders  Wink
The fee increase was suggested earlier.  There was no direct response from Bitfinex.


I responded quite a few times. I specifically said that what we are looking for, the purpose of this conversation, is to improve the calculation of the FRR. Yes, we could completely change the business model, start a fund that offers CD's. We could charge traders more, in order to get more money to people providing swaps, or we could do any number of other proposed suggestions. The main issue, as I've stated before, is that that doesn't actually accomplish the goal we are trying to do, which is arrive at a more meaningful FRR. As I keep pointing out, the goal is not to increase the rates of swaps.

It is a very very simple market. There is currently unused swaps being offered, so there is surplus supply. If the rate is not high enough, don't offer a swap. Once enough people stop offering swaps, because the rates are too low, the market will respond with higher rates.

As I said, just yesterday, we will be announcing the changes to the FRR soon. Thanks for all your input.
Well that's our answer.  Game over.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Hey MJR, care to address the issue I posted earlier about your API?
mjr
full member
Activity: 194
Merit: 100
we must think of an incentive for Bitfinex to change anything regarding this FRR.
All arguments are of no use when we can´t manage to convince them.


I'm open to suggestion.  Appeals to logic certainly do not seem to be working.

maybe an increase in the 15 % fee they currently take?

1. they choose one of our proposed solutions regarding the FRR
2. we probably enjoy higher interest rates
3. they enjoy higher profit (if they hike the 15 % to 20 % or something similar)

However I´m still uncertain if they would do anything, because the traders would be the
ones who pay for this increase in earnings for bitfinex and the lenders  Wink
The fee increase was suggested earlier.  There was no direct response from Bitfinex.


I responded quite a few times. I specifically said that what we are looking for, the purpose of this conversation, is to improve the calculation of the FRR. Yes, we could completely change the business model, start a fund that offers CD's. We could charge traders more, in order to get more money to people providing swaps, or we could do any number of other proposed suggestions. The main issue, as I've stated before, is that that doesn't actually accomplish the goal we are trying to do, which is arrive at a more meaningful FRR. As I keep pointing out, the goal is not to increase the rates of swaps.

It is a very very simple market. There is currently unused swaps being offered, so there is surplus supply. If the rate is not high enough, don't offer a swap. Once enough people stop offering swaps, because the rates are too low, the market will respond with higher rates.

As I said, just yesterday, we will be announcing the changes to the FRR soon. Thanks for all your input.
newbie
Activity: 47
Merit: 0
we must think of an incentive for Bitfinex to change anything regarding this FRR.
All arguments are of no use when we can´t manage to convince them.


I'm open to suggestion.  Appeals to logic certainly do not seem to be working.

maybe an increase in the 15 % fee they currently take?

1. they choose one of our proposed solutions regarding the FRR
2. we probably enjoy higher interest rates
3. they enjoy higher profit (if they hike the 15 % to 20 % or something similar)

However I´m still uncertain if they would do anything, because the traders would be the
ones who pay for this increase in earnings for bitfinex and the lenders  Wink
The fee increase was suggested earlier.  There was no direct response from Bitfinex.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
we must think of an incentive for Bitfinex to change anything regarding this FRR.
All arguments are of no use when we can´t manage to convince them.


I'm open to suggestion.  Appeals to logic certainly do not seem to be working.

maybe an increase in the 15 % fee they currently take?

1. they choose one of our proposed solutions regarding the FRR
2. we probably enjoy higher interest rates
3. they enjoy higher profit (if they hike the 15 % to 20 % or something similar)

However I´m still uncertain if they would do anything, because the traders would be the
ones who pay for this increase in earnings for bitfinex and the lenders  Wink
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