On Ordinals: Where do you stand? - page 35.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: franky1 on March 04, 2023, 01:37:34 PM

these ordinal junk are not fit for purpose as "nft" they dont have any representation of ownership in their recipients transaction.

its just dead data that stays in the creators transaction with nothing to represent it in the blockchain data when "spent"

that's because the whole thing is just a creative use of a loophole that probably shouldn't have existed in the first place. you gotta wonder why the devs haven't shown up here to address the issue.

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ordinal meme spam has no place in bitcoin as it serves no blockchain function but to bloat it up into a meme library

you would think the devs would understand that point of view and do something about it. why did the witness need to be so big anyway?

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https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/0301e0480b374b32851a9462db29dc19fe830a7f7d7a88b81612b9d42099c0ae

looks like blockchain.com has to store this nft data twice. once in the witness and then once as the decoded jpeg so they can show the images on their website...so they're disc space is getting eaten up even more than bitcoin nodes is. Shocked

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3,938,383 Bytes - fee: ZERO

it costed them cpu cycles to do the proof of work to get that block into the blockchain though. so it wasn't free. yes i guess they got the block reward but they didn't include peoples transactions so they missed out on whatever those transaction fees would have been...

franky1

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these ordinal junk are not fit for purpose as "nft" they dont have any representation of ownership in their recipients transaction.

its just dead data that stays in the creators transaction with nothing to represent it in the blockchain data when "spent"

ordinal meme spam has no place in bitcoin as it serves no blockchain function but to bloat it up into a meme library

..
as for those saying the rest of the network just has to "pay more"
that does not work as many examples show that these meme spam transactions pay less than the average and in some cases no fee at all. so no matter what other pay doesnt change the pools selection decisions. becasue they are not selecting to add these meme spam tx due to any rational fee proposition

yep many meme spam tx pay less than 1sat/byte and yes there are a few that pay ZERO

https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/0301e0480b374b32851a9462db29dc19fe830a7f7d7a88b81612b9d42099c0ae

3,938,383 Bytes - fee: ZERO

Hispo

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 03, 2023, 08:53:16 AM

Quote from: Hispo on March 03, 2023, 08:22:09 AM

Quote from: Artemis3 on March 02, 2023, 12:21:09 PM

I started a new 1 sat/b actual Bitcoin transaction yesterday. Lets see how many days the current spam wave will make me wait... Remember, it used to be 2~12 hours before Ordinals and friends invaded.

I would have set that transaction at 2 sat/bit at least, considering I have been noticing some important accumulation and delay on those that have opted for 1 sat/bit. Nonetheless, I am confident enough that this weekend we could see a significant drop in the mempool memory and the cheapest transactions could go through without much problem.

If there is no reduction, then next week would be one of high fees, similar to what we witnessed in mid February. Sad

This year, I believe we will truly start to understand the point of RBF and the fee market. It will not be the perfect situation, especially for those coffee-transactions, but with censorship-resistant, unstoppable money will come a price. I'm starting to understand that if it's not Ordinals, it's going to be another situation that there's more demand for block space. Maybe if there's more demand for payments in Bitcoin perhaps?

I believe one needs to understand the point of view of Artemis3 and people who agree this is spam. If we talk of Bitcoin as "free money" or a P2P payment system. Then where do the NFTs/ordinals find their place in this concept? Or isn't Bitcoin to be a tool to transfer value rather than a decentralized storage for thousands of pictures?

While I agree RBF is useful, one should not expect it to be an ultimate solution if one wants to pay something in a reasonable period of time. Specially in countries where each dollar counts.

I am very curious on what satoshi would think about this situation.

nutildah

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Quote from: franky1 on March 04, 2023, 09:05:55 AM

ok so no, you don't have the slightest bit of evidence to back up your claims. thanks for answering truthfully.

pooya87

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on March 03, 2023, 08:26:51 PM

does anyone know why this person keeps uploading tons of the same image?

Maybe they are trying to prove there is no "uniqueness" despite what the attackers are advertising The Ordinals Attack as.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on March 03, 2023, 08:26:51 PM

it would be nice if bitcoin had a feature where someone could do another transaction with a higher amount to remove someone else's junk from the blockchain.

That is similar to basically what the fee market does. Nodes all have a finite amount of memory to keep unconfirmed transactions in, when they surpass their limit they start dropping transactions with lowest fee.
Although you don't remove the junk from blockchain, just the mempool and until they rebroadcast the same junk or the junk with higher fee.

franky1

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@nutty
try to read.. try to learn
if you need to be spoonfed then you have not done any learning at all

if your read. even posts in this topic you will see others saying about one guy posting 10,000 memes

such as i was replying to a guy that was asking why some guy was posting a tonne of memes
the answer is logical and common sense

its the same in real life art
if an artist cant sell 1 painting to become a millionaire. he instead sells 10,000 for $100 each to be a millionaire

or sells 1 million prints(posters) for $1
its basic economics

i thought you would be proud of an idiot trying sell/trade crap memes. seeing as you love the idea of a meme market

because the only other conclusion is that its just crap dead weight data they just want to spam bloat the blocks for no other reason than just to spam bloat.. something you dont want to think is the purpose

so you pick the reason

nutildah

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Quote from: franky1 on March 04, 2023, 12:14:31 AM

its simple
a guy makes 1 meme and tries to sell it to himself for XX to set a price he thinks an idiot will pay
..they dont pay
so then he thinks if he caan sell 10,000 similar images for 0.00X each he can then make the same total

wut

do you have the slightest shred of proof this is what is actually happening or your source is once again your ass, per usual

thecodebear

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on March 04, 2023, 12:09:38 AM

Quote from: thecodebear on March 03, 2023, 11:05:06 PM

So I don't really understand how these ordinals work - something about like each satoshi is a unique NFT in the ordinals project and what they use the data of the transaction to hold NFT data or something?

how many satoshis are there? that's how many nfts there can be in bitcoin.

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But is there a possible non-hard fork solution to not allowing spam like this? Like a data cap on transactions? Or would that just be a bad idea for other reasons?

franky already discussed this some i think and if i understood him correctly it would not be a hard fork...

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Anyway, I just saw the link to the ordinals website on this thread and clicked on it and I'm not too worried. It's just a bunch of dumb pictures haha. I very much doubt people are gonna bother messing around with this stuff for very long. And anyway all the NFT people are too busy with Ethereum and random altcoins, most of them don't even own any Bitcoin in the first place. I'm guessing this is just a little fad because it just came out and it'll disappear eventually because who the hell cares about stupid NFT pictures in the Bitcoin community?

i mean why would someone waste their money buying a dumb picture on ethereum when it's not even stored "on-chain" ?

you could even store your "members-only" stories from medium.com on bitcoin if you wanted to. but then people could read it for free. Shocked

Well I mean NFTs on ETH and altcoins is part of the whole speculative gamble of that stuff - buy random stuff and hope to get rich quick. The Bitcoin community has moved beyond that now. So I'm saying I'd be surprised if there were very many people in the Bitcoin community that are interested in that sort of stuff on Bitcoin, especially when Ethereum and other smart contract chains already have those communities and markets, even if the way NFTs are handling are worse on those chains. These NFT communities don't care about dumb pictures not being stored on-chain, otherwise they wouldn't be into NFTs in the first place, they just care about selling NFTs for a profit as long as the fad lasts (or lasted as it has mostly collapsed already). For people into NFTs ETH is the market you want to be in because that's where NFTs are still sort of popular, Bitcoin would not be a good choice so I gotta imagine the number of people involved with ordinals has gotta be very small and will probably diminish with time.

franky1

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on March 03, 2023, 08:26:51 PM

it must be a collection of like 10,000 identical pieces of garbage.

its simple
a guy makes 1 meme and tries to sell it to himself for XX to set a price he thinks an idiot will pay
..they dont pay
so then he thinks if he caan sell 10,000 similar images for 0.00X each he can then make the same total

meanwhile what he is doing is bloating up the space which could have been used for normal payments

as for others saying "it will just go away lets do nothing. if in doubt just pay more to scare them away"

the actual result is what larry just linked. people dont just go away after dropping 1 image that doesnt sell.. instead they multiply up and start throwing in thousands of images

as for the "do nothing" request of others. well sooner or later more abuse becomes more abuse. thus HOPING it will go away doesnt happen

bitcoin is code. it sets rules trying to suggest to not use code or set rules and instead have a HOPE network goes against all logic

bitcoin is not based on hope system
its based on a coded rule system of united consent.
trying to tell people walk away, dont do anything, dont try to stop bad things. is not the way to go

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: thecodebear on March 03, 2023, 11:05:06 PM

So I don't really understand how these ordinals work - something about like each satoshi is a unique NFT in the ordinals project and what they use the data of the transaction to hold NFT data or something?

how many satoshis are there? that's how many nfts there can be in bitcoin.

Quote

But is there a possible non-hard fork solution to not allowing spam like this? Like a data cap on transactions? Or would that just be a bad idea for other reasons?

franky already discussed this some i think and if i understood him correctly it would not be a hard fork...

Quote

Anyway, I just saw the link to the ordinals website on this thread and clicked on it and I'm not too worried. It's just a bunch of dumb pictures haha. I very much doubt people are gonna bother messing around with this stuff for very long. And anyway all the NFT people are too busy with Ethereum and random altcoins, most of them don't even own any Bitcoin in the first place. I'm guessing this is just a little fad because it just came out and it'll disappear eventually because who the hell cares about stupid NFT pictures in the Bitcoin community?

i mean why would someone waste their money buying a dumb picture on ethereum when it's not even stored "on-chain" ?

you could even store your "members-only" stories from medium.com on bitcoin if you wanted to. but then people could read it for free. Shocked

thecodebear

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So I don't really understand how these ordinals work - something about like each satoshi is a unique NFT in the ordinals project and what they use the data of the transaction to hold NFT data or something?

But is there a possible non-hard fork solution to not allowing spam like this? Like a data cap on transactions? Or would that just be a bad idea for other reasons?

Anyway, I just saw the link to the ordinals website on this thread and clicked on it and I'm not too worried. It's just a bunch of dumb pictures haha. I very much doubt people are gonna bother messing around with this stuff for very long. And anyway all the NFT people are too busy with Ethereum and random altcoins, most of them don't even own any Bitcoin in the first place. I'm guessing this is just a little fad because it just came out and it'll disappear eventually because who the hell cares about stupid NFT pictures in the Bitcoin community?

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Artemis3 on March 03, 2023, 10:17:40 AM

I want to see how long this second (post Ordinals) 1 sat/b transaction takes, first one took a whole week.

does anyone know why this person keeps uploading tons of the same image?
https://ordinals.com/inscription/f378a7375771019b4fd99245be37d835c6b24c3b999dc229c6d753547bf0eaaei0

it must be a collection of like 10,000 identical pieces of garbage. Shocked

he's sucking up all the 1 sat/b transactions for sure! it would be nice if bitcoin had a feature where someone could do another transaction with a higher amount to remove someone else's junk from the blockchain. that way people would be forced to pay a fair price for uploading their junk and you really can't call stuff like this anything but that...

n0nce

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on March 01, 2023, 08:53:09 PM

Quote from: franky1 on March 01, 2023, 12:15:07 PM

the whole ploy is not to have a cheap functional decentralised payment network. but a middleman payment network with an expensive to use vault/reserve value network
which only the elitists can afford to use becasue they are only moving large amounts

i don't want to send my money on some level 2 network. if i'm doing that, i might as well be using an altcoin not bitcoin right? because level 2 = bad.

Not sure whether you're mocking franky or if you need a primer on Lightning. If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the respective threads.
The Lightning Network FAQ
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Quote from: fillippone on March 03, 2023, 05:34:39 PM

Quote from: AverageGlabella on March 03, 2023, 10:38:32 AM

Unstoppable spam is going to win.

Cannot agree with that.
Firstly what is spam? All the transactions in the mempoool are valid transactions; some are spam. What gets inserted in a book cannot be considered spam, as they paid market fees.

I brought it up before, but by that definition, spam does not exist. Classic email spam is not spam, because those emails are valid emails? Spammy web ads are not spam, because they consist of valid HTML?
We typically categorize spam through content and not through whether something uses the technology correctly. If I send myself Bitcoin over and over again, just to fill the mempool, that could (should? you be the judge on that) be considered 'spamming the network'.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spamming

or simply repeatedly sending the same message to the same user

fillippone

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Quote from: AverageGlabella on March 03, 2023, 10:38:32 AM

Quote from: Artemis3 on March 03, 2023, 10:17:40 AM

Unstoppable money or unstoppable spam? Who is willing to pay more to dominate the mempool?

Well RBF has been a thing for years, it just has been enabled by default when it was opt in before. But, having to redo the transaction with a higher fee should be an exception, and not a norm.

I want to see how long this second (post Ordinals) 1 sat/b transaction takes, first one took a whole week.

Unstoppable spam is going to win.

Cannot agree with that.
Firstly what is spam? All the transactions in the mempoool are valid transactions; some are spam. What gets inserted in a book cannot be considered spam, as they paid market fees.
You might not like it, but it's a valid and fee-paying transaction cost.
Of course, fees are elevated, and the associated cost will be higher, spam attack funds will soon be depleted, and the attack will extinguish itself.

AverageGlabella

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Quote from: Artemis3 on March 03, 2023, 10:17:40 AM

Unstoppable money or unstoppable spam? Who is willing to pay more to dominate the mempool?

Well RBF has been a thing for years, it just has been enabled by default when it was opt in before. But, having to redo the transaction with a higher fee should be an exception, and not a norm.

I want to see how long this second (post Ordinals) 1 sat/b transaction takes, first one took a whole week.

Unstoppable spam is going to win. People cannot use a currency when the transaction fees are increasing because of spam and any government that wants to hinder Bitcoin can attack the network by artificially increasing the fees. We are seeing fees go up from people spamming but what if a government or organization decides to organize a attack on Bitcoin with ordinals? The fees will go up a lot more.

Artemis3

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Unstoppable money or unstoppable spam? Who is willing to pay more to dominate the mempool?

Well RBF has been a thing for years, it just has been enabled by default when it was opt in before. But, having to redo the transaction with a higher fee should be an exception, and not a norm.

I want to see how long this second (post Ordinals) 1 sat/b transaction takes, first one took a whole week.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Hispo on March 03, 2023, 08:22:09 AM

Quote from: Artemis3 on March 02, 2023, 12:21:09 PM

I started a new 1 sat/b actual Bitcoin transaction yesterday. Lets see how many days the current spam wave will make me wait... Remember, it used to be 2~12 hours before Ordinals and friends invaded.

I would have set that transaction at 2 sat/bit at least, considering I have been noticing some important accumulation and delay on those that have opted for 1 sat/bit. Nonetheless, I am confident enough that this weekend we could see a significant drop in the mempool memory and the cheapest transactions could go through without much problem.

If there is no reduction, then next week would be one of high fees, similar to what we witnessed in mid February. Sad

This year, I believe we will truly start to understand the point of RBF and the fee market. It will not be the perfect situation, especially for those coffee-transactions, but with censorship-resistant, unstoppable money will come a price. I'm starting to understand that if it's not Ordinals, it's going to be another situation that there's more demand for block space. Maybe if there's more demand for payments in Bitcoin perhaps?

Hispo

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Quote from: Artemis3 on March 02, 2023, 12:21:09 PM

I started a new 1 sat/b actual Bitcoin transaction yesterday. Lets see how many days the current spam wave will make me wait... Remember, it used to be 2~12 hours before Ordinals and friends invaded.

I would have set that transaction at 2 sat/bit at least, considering I have been noticing some important accumulation and delay on those that have opted for 1 sat/bit. Nonetheless, I am confident enough that this weekend we could see a significant drop in the mempool memory and the cheapest transactions could go through without much problem.

If there is no reduction, then next week would be one of high fees, similar to what we witnessed in mid February. Sad

nutildah

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Quote from: franky1 on March 02, 2023, 11:00:13 AM

these silly memes being "sold" for hundreds of thousands. are not actually sold to new recipients
its the maker selling to himself, to set a spot price. but at no cost becasue funds move from and back to the same person

this then fakes a price. to make people think they are worth a high amount

Wash trading in Ethereum NFTs exists (as it does in BTC and every other major cryptocurrency) but I'm calling horseshit on this until you provide a concrete example of it happening with a Bitcoin NFT.

pooya87

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on March 01, 2023, 11:12:22 PM

It can be argued that it might bring more adoption on bitcoin.

It won't because those who are interested in these shittokens aren't adopting bitcoin. They are basically gamblers who seek out something (in this case garbage) they can place some "bets" on and see if it goes up in value so that they can make some profit.

In fact if the Ordinals attack has any effects on bitcoin adoption is that it will prevent adoption by making bitcoin hard to use and possibly even unusable if it picks up and the spam reaches or surpasses the 2017 spam levels.

Topic: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? - page 35. (Read 9235 times)