Topic: Open Transactions Server: Asset/Bond/Commodity/Cryptocoin/Deed/Share/Stock Exch. - page 6. (Read 42623 times)

Merged in FT latest work into my MoneyChanger branch; please test:

https://github.com/da2ce7/Moneychanger

I repeat: I am not anonymous.

-MarkM- (Mark Metson at various well known sites, Knotwork at others, WHOIS knotwork.com and knotwork.net; heck I even run knotwork.i2p)

Maybe big companies won't accept non legally binding tokens, but people do it with small quantities all the time. When you buy a ticket for a beer in a concert, is there a contract?
Your counterparty risk is greater if you cannot sue your debtor (and if the IOUs are pseudonymously issued), but if you can sue it you still have a risk. Aren't Greek (or US for that matter) bonds legal contracts?
When you give assets in exchange of promises there's always risks.
You could also exchange your promises for other promises and pay transitively (see ripple). You could accept only tokens from pseudonymous you know well.
It is definitely possible that people accept non binding IOUs. There's lots of examples.

The server/software isn't cheating you / your users, but the server is operating with fake money because the minter using this server is not reliable. Whatever reputation this minter has so far nothing is preventing them from "printing" as much tokens as they wish without bothering to back them with actual assets. Nothing is limiting them because they can not be hold responsible for breaking the contract they have signed. They can not be hold responsible because they can not be brought to justice. They can not be brought to justice because they are anonymous... Case solved!

Excellent, now we're getting somewhere!

The contract .otc files are a mechanism of the software, they are provided so the software will process our tokens, and can to an extent, at least to the operator of the server (me in this case) provide some sense of assurance that the server/software isn't cheating me / my users.

The contracts are signed by "nyms" which presumably correspond in the Galactic Milieu to clerks located in some office in the city MI5ius on the planet known as M5.

-MarkM-

I have signed a contract. Actually, the contract itself is the digital asset (Ricardian contracts). If I don't fulfill my obligation described in this contract I shall be brought to trial by the owners of those digital assets.

Why do you think people sign contracts? Because they need to do business with each other but don't trust entirely each other. Now you're trying to convince me that you have a reputation and I have to trust you 100%. If I trust you 100% I don't need any contract in the first place!

Not my problem... I am not anonymous.

What guarantee does anyone have that you will not sell your non-anonymous reputation? Isn't that what "lamplighting" and related branches of "tradecraft" are all about? Did I get the term right? its been a while since I read John Le Carre and similar genre novels...)

-MarkM-

Minters can use public crypto. You don't know who they are but you know they're always the same people.
And people can vote their reputation with crypto too.

I haven't read even a quarter of bitcoin's code but I trust a random guy called satoshi. I can't sue the current developers of bitcoin if they introduce a bug on purpose to steal my bitcoins. Not likely to happen being free software anyway.
But from my point of view, this case is different. Because bitcoins aren't IOUs but actual cash (although not in the legal sense of any jurisdiction that I know).

Ahha, so why do you think your private key should be of any value to me? Because you would attach some "anonymous" reputation to it, right?

There is an old movie that was starting like that: "This is the City of London where reputations are made and... sold". So, what would be the guarantee that you will not "sell" your reputation when I least expect it, say by printing tokens that are not backed by actual assets?

This is different. This is commercial counter party risk.

What we discuss about is someone giving you fake money Since you can not exchange them for the asset they are backed by in minter's vault. They don't have value unless you find someone that is willing to give you something valuable in exchange for those fake money... And you find this to be a perfectly normal way of doing business?

Anyone who has your private key, sure. Who do you give that "power of spokesperson" to?

-MarkM-

As to that, I am not permitted to say. However the MI-2 (Martian Intelligence Initiative) software that some claim i2p (invisible internet project) is a primitive low-tech imitation of seems to access .m5 websites just fine, which i2p doesn't. Whether this is due to the use of transwarp conduits, slipstream technology, or simple pedestrian subspace communications I suppose we'd have to ask 'Q'...

-MarkM-

Interesting. Why should I accept this risk in the first place? Being anonymous your reputation is zero because anyone can speak on your behalf claiming they are you!

Does it matter? I would have written exactly the same thing if completely sober.
Still don't understand the difference between IOUs and cash or still don't believe that people often voluntarily accept unbacked certificates with no legal binding?
People even get into stranger's homes through reputation.

I think your OT server is just a Martian proxy.
Guys, what do you smoke today?

The tokens can represent carrots, gold, bitcoins, cash, hours or whatever it's more or less fungible.
You don't have to worry about laws about moving cash when you're not moving cash. And this is not cash.
These are cryptographically certified IOUs, but not legal tender. It's a debt from one party to another, even if the debtor (minter) doesn't know who the creditor (the owner of the untraceable "cash") is.


Nothing. You're screwed like a "my bitcoin" customer.
But you accepted that risk in the first place.


You can't. You only know the minter by its pseudonymous. That's not enough to take someone to the courts.

How can you do if you pay for 50 btc for a bag full of pills at silkroad and it doesn't arrive to your home?
Well, issue a negative vote. Just that.

I am not an OT server, my OT server is a software application I run on a hardware platform.

I don't really care about its reputation so much as my own. I am not, however convinced that having it rip people off, especially if the proceeds of its doing so accrue to me, would be without effect upon my own reputation.

Whether my server is disposable or not, I am not inclined to regard myself nor my own reputation as disposable.

As to how you defend your interest if "anonymous guy, possibly Martian, who styles him her or its self as some kind of currency or corp" does not honour their contract, well, I put it to you that it might well be because of such concerns that the British and the Canadians chose to ally themselves with the Martians rather than, for example, declare war upon them.

You are free to go to war against the Martians and/or their allies (such as, but not limited to, the British, Canadians, and, if the Martian stories about where their blockchain technology really came from are true, even the Hackers), using the full resources of whatever nation or nations you control within the Galactic Milieu, or to petition those who do rule such nations as characters of yours within the milieu are citizens of to extend sanctions or go to war. It is in the nature of the game that escalation of hostility can and sometimes probably has led to war. Ce la jeux.

-MarkM-

I don't understand what are you trying to say if this is an argument. Argument to what? That you don't need to obey the law if you pay in cash above the limit that is allowed?

There is no technical impediment but there is a legal question - what can I do to defend my interest if the signed "anonymous guy" does not honor their contract? How do I sue them if they are anonymous?

OT servers do not need to have good reputation. They don't need to be trusted by the users and are disposable. But minters absolutely need to be reputable and transparent in how they handle the actual physical backing.

These are cash-like IOUs, not cash. Try to pay your taxes or a fine with them.


The contract could say "I owe you in bitcoins the same amount you have in OT tokens. Signed: anonymous guy". There's no technical impediment.

Who would accept such IOUs?
Once again, reputation. People are paying up front to merchants they don't know at silkroad. Can all the people who has deposits at mtgox effectively sue the company from their jurisdiction? What if contract is signed with the private key of a bitcoin address that satoshi can proof is his address?
Legal contracts make the need for trust lower, but just that. It doesn't matter that you have a contract with your bank, you still have to trust them. In the end it's all about trust. And anonymous entities can obtain trust through reputation.