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Topic: Open Transactions Server: Asset/Bond/Commodity/Cryptocoin/Deed/Share/Stock Exch. - page 8. (Read 42605 times)

legendary
Activity: 1222
Merit: 1016
Live and Let Live
OK New stuff for testing:

Please download; compile, fix, and submit bug reports for my patches of Moneychanger:
https://github.com/da2ce7/Moneychanger

To compile Open Transactions on debain; I have updated instructions here
https://github.com/da2ce7/Open-Transactions/blob/master/INSTALL-DebianStable.txt

Smiley Cam.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Thanks for your answer Smiley But I still cant make it work, I downloaded the pre builds so should be no need to build. And i followd the readme in /binary folder. Still no chance

You still need to put the shared library (the .so) somewhere where your runtime linker will find it.

-MarkM-
full member
Activity: 546
Merit: 100
Thanks for your answer Smiley But I still cant make it work, I downloaded the pre builds so should be no need to build. And i followd the readme in /binary folder. Still no chance
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
I would like to join you in alfa testing. Really cool project Smiley I've downloaded the pre builds for ubuntu and tryed to run it several times, but I keep getting this error: (MoneyChanger)

http://bayimg.com/OaLFBAADM

Any ideas?

After making and installing OT, you also need to make clean and make java to create the java lib, which you then need to put someplace where moneychanger will find it.

For me that place is /usr/local/lib, since the java client no longer seems to find it if it is in the same directory you are in when you run the client. I put moneychanger's jar and its lib directory in /usr/local/lib/ot, and have a shell script /usr/local/bin/ot_j that changes dir to there then runs the jar. I used to put the java lib in with the jar but that no longer works, thus nowadays I put it in /usr/local/lib and it gets found. (Albeit for a while my linker wasnt looking in /usr/local/ at all, dunno if that was standard or a result of some muck-up, but I fixed that too, had to else anything I built that put its shared lib in /usr/local/lib wouldn't work.)

-MarkM-
full member
Activity: 546
Merit: 100
I would like to join you in alfa testing. Really cool project Smiley I've downloaded the pre builds for ubuntu and tryed to run it several times, but I keep getting this error: (MoneyChanger)

http://bayimg.com/OaLFBAADM

Any ideas?
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
I had heard of eCache, but not uKash. (URL?)
URL is http://www.ukash.com/global/en/home.aspx

Quote
Smart Voucher Limited. (of which Ukash is a trading name) is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority in the United Kingdom as an electronic money institution. This regulation has been passported to all other countries in which Smart Voucher Ltd operates, with approval from the relevant local regulator. Smart Voucher Ltd (trading as Ukash) FSA register number: 900007, Company Number 4202050 registered in England & Wales at 5-7 Tanner Street, London, SE1 3LE, UK

eCache I am pretty sure is the legitimate thing: (Chaumian untraceable cash, backed in gold.) They also have some kind of bonding mechanism, to secure the gold.

As for Ukash, I checked out their website and I am not so sure. Seems like they have "vouchers" issued by their server. But I see nothing about those vouchers being untraceable. Furthermore, an OT server is unable to change your balance without your permission (you must sign first, and the server cannot forge your signature.) But I don't see that Ukash has any similar technology. Absent claims / proof to the contrary, I'd have to assume that they have the power to change my balance anytime they want, with or without my agreement, the same as PayPal or MtGox could.

-FT
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
I had heard of eCache, but not uKash. (URL?)
URL is http://www.ukash.com/global/en/home.aspx

Quote
Smart Voucher Limited. (of which Ukash is a trading name) is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority in the United Kingdom as an electronic money institution. This regulation has been passported to all other countries in which Smart Voucher Ltd operates, with approval from the relevant local regulator. Smart Voucher Ltd (trading as Ukash) FSA register number: 900007, Company Number 4202050 registered in England & Wales at 5-7 Tanner Street, London, SE1 3LE, UK
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
fellowtraveler and markm, thanks for putting some time to address my questions.

How is it possible to return the cash notes anonymously to the user?  ANSWER: Over an anonymous network.

How is it possible that the note itself cannot be traced as it is spent?  ANSWER:  Using blind signatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Signatures

As end result for the user, how is that different to using eCash anonymous banking operating through interfaces in the Tor network or using uKash (Smart Voucher Ltd)?

I am not too familiar with those systems, though I'd assume they are similar to running OT in cash-only mode, since they probably offer real Chaumian blinding.

I had heard of eCache, but not uKash. (URL?) There was also blindbitcoin.com. OT should make it easier for people to offer such services.
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
fellowtraveler and markm, thanks for putting some time to address my questions.

How is it possible to return the cash notes anonymously to the user?  ANSWER: Over an anonymous network.

How is it possible that the note itself cannot be traced as it is spent?  ANSWER:  Using blind signatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Signatures

As end result for the user, how is that different to using eCash anonymous banking operating through interfaces in the Tor network or using uKash (Smart Voucher Ltd)?
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
Has anyone connected via I2P yet?  I'd like to contribute but, in all honesty, I'm still having a hard time figuring this software out.  Do you have a guide or FAQ for setting up a client to connect to your server?

FYI, the connect info for any server is stored INSIDE the server contract.

If you want to connect to a specific server, go to the 'contracts' tab, and import the server contract.

From there, if you open any accounts, or perform any transactions with that server, OT will be smart enough to read the connect info out of its contract.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 107
Has anyone connected via I2P yet?  I'd like to contribute but, in all honesty, I'm still having a hard time figuring this software out.  Do you have a guide or FAQ for setting up a client to connect to your server?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251

Here's a simple version:

Imagine that I generate a random ID:  "lkjsdf987234"

Next I blind it, using the server's $10 public key:  "876345kjhkjh"

(Next I send it to the server, along with a $10 withdrawal request.)

The server pulls $10 from my account, and then the server
signs the prototoken using its $10 private key:   "876345kjhkjh SIGNED:Server"

(Sends it back to me...)

I then UNBLIND IT using the Server's $10 public key:  "lkjsdf987234 SIGNED:Server"


AT THIS POINT, the token is ready to spend.  As you can see, I have a valid server signature, which can only be verified using the server's $10 key, and which contains an ID that the server DOES NOT KNOW.

That is why it's called a "blind signature" -- because the server signs it "blind".

The server still feels safe that only the $10 key will verify the signature. So while the server has no idea where the cash came from, when it is redeemed, it nevertheless knows whether or not it is any good.
This is also provable to a third party, since the spent token database can be made public, and only the server's $10 public key is necessary to verify the tokens.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
That's because you are not educated on this subject:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Signatures
I hope you are. Can you please help me understand? I've read the original paper by Chaum, David (1983). "Blind signatures for untraceable payments" - http://www.hit.bme.hu/~buttyan/courses/BMEVIHIM219/2009/Chaum.BlindSigForPayment.1982.PDF

An example payment transaction in 13 steps is described on page 4 where blind signature usage is illustrated. The actors are a bank, a payer, and a payee.

1. In step (4) - Bank returns the signed note c'(c(x)), to payer. And there is a clarification after transaction is done - "the bank does not know which payer the note was originally issued to in step (4)". How is that possible to return something to somebody without knowing who he is?

Imagine that you withdrew $100 from the bank.
Now imagine you give it to your favorite prostitute, and she gives it to her pimp, and he gives it to his coke dealer, who gives it to a coyote, who spends it at 7/11.
Now:  The bank can see that you WITHDREW $100, and the bank can see that 7/11 DEPOSITED $100... but the bank can't see any of the people who had it in-between.
Furthermore, the bank doesn't know if it's the SAME $100. It simply has no way of connecting the withdrawal to the deposit, since the cash is untraceable.

If you have several pseudonyms (public keys) registered at an OT server, and they are transacting in cash, the server can see their withdrawals and deposits, but it cannot see who is giving you that money, and it cannot see where you are spending it. Such is untraceable. A server doesn't even know whether you have a hoard of coins which you are exchanging one-at-a-time, or whether you actually have only a single coin, which you are exchanging over and over again. A server can't tell the difference.
Furthermore, while the server can link a specific Nym's withdrawals to each other (by way of that Nym), it cannot link them to how they are spent, or to any of the activities of your other Nyms. Furthermore, if the server is run in cash-only mode, so that there is only a single Nym which performs only cash-token exchanges, then you lose even pseudonymity, and the system becomes completely anonymous.

How is it possible to return the cash notes anonymously to the user?  ANSWER: Over an anonymous network.

How is it possible that the note itself cannot be traced as it is spent?  ANSWER:  Using blind signatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Signatures

It works like this:  The client generates the prototokens and blinds them using the server's public mint keys. These prototokens are sent to the server along with the withdrawal request.  The server signs the prototokens using its private mint keys.  For example, if I am withdrawing $100, then the $100 public mint key will be used on the client side to blind the prototoken, and the $100 private mint key will be used on the server sign to blind-sign the prototoken, and then when the client receives the server reply, the client will use the $100 public mint key to UNBLIND the prototoken, and it is now ready for spending.

(This information is already available on my FAQ...)

Once the client has unblinded the prototoken, then it will have a valid server signature on its ID, even though the server doesn't know what that ID is, since it was blinded when it was signed.

The server is, nevertheless confident that if $100 was withdrawn from your account, that it used the $100 mint key to sign the request -- therefore, even though the server doesn't what what the ID is, it still knows that it was signed with the $100 key, and that only the $100 key will successfully verify it in the future.  When it IS verified, the server will know it was good, but it will not know where it originally came from, since this is untraceable.


Quote
2. There is a note prior to this example "The critical concept is that the bank will sign anything with its private key, but anything so signed is worth a fixed amount, say $1." This is pretty much in line with the carbon paper lined envelopes voting example where this concept is derived from - 1 vote 1 transaction. But what if payment transaction amounts to, say $12.36 or $0.84?

The answer is that digital cash uses denominations, just like real cash.  In a certain mint file there might be, say, a 1c key, a 5c key, 10c key, 25c key, 50c key, $1 key, $5 key, $10 key, $20 key, and $100 key.

For an example of this, see the sample public mint file posted on the OT wiki:  
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Sample-Mint

Thus, if you give cash to someone in a specific amount, you will not be giving him a token, but rather, a purse full of them, in the appropriate denominations to amount to your $12.63 or $0.84 etc.

Quote
3. To best of my knowledge there is no bank in the world currently offering blind signature payment transactions to their customers. Why do banks stick to "know everything about every transaction" practice about 30 years after blind signature concept was introduced by David Chaum?

Banks are bureaucracies responsible primarily for regulatory compliance and enforcement (related to their monopoly on the issuance of money.)

Their actions do not stem from natural market forces, but from the regulations related to the FDIC, money laundering and tax law, SEC compliance, and so on.

In answer to your question, Why do banks stick to "know everything about every transaction"...? the answer is so they can watch for suspicious activities on your part, report on them to the authorities, and freeze your funds when asked to by the tax enforcement department in your jurisdiction.

Similarly, if you were to ask me why food is so superior to tree bark, since many in the North Korean economy continue to eat tree bark (even though they have known about food for at least several decades), my answer would be that North Koreans eat tree bark not because of natural market forces, but rather, due to the unavailability of good food as a result of government interference in the free market.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
3. To best of my knowledge there is no bank in the world currently offering blind signature payment transactions to their customers. Why do banks stick to "know everything about every transaction" practice about 30 years after blind signature concept was introduced by David Chaum?

Try googling "Know Your Customer" ...

...And related regulations; money-laundering laws; war on terrorism; etc.

Meanwhile, after more debugging marathons we have done some essential fixes to Open Transactions to get markets working, and are re-starting the server "from scratch" with new version 0.75c asset contracts for all the assets. Everyone will need the latest Open Transactions and the new asset contracts. This time hopefully will be "for real".

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
That's because you are not educated on this subject:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Signatures
I hope you are. Can you please help me understand? I've read the original paper by Chaum, David (1983). "Blind signatures for untraceable payments" - http://www.hit.bme.hu/~buttyan/courses/BMEVIHIM219/2009/Chaum.BlindSigForPayment.1982.PDF

An example payment transaction in 13 steps is described on page 4 where blind signature usage is illustrated. The actors are a bank, a payer, and a payee.

1. In step (4) - Bank returns the signed note c'(c(x)), to payer. And there is a clarification after transaction is done - "the bank does not know which payer the note was originally issued to in step (4)". How is that possible to return something to somebody without knowing who he is?

2. There is a note prior to this example "The critical concept is that the bank will sign anything with its private key, but anything so signed is worth a fixed amount, say $1." This is pretty much in line with the carbon paper lined envelopes voting example where this concept is derived from - 1 vote 1 transaction. But what if payment transaction amounts to, say $12.36 or $0.84?

3. To best of my knowledge there is no bank in the world currently offering blind signature payment transactions to their customers. Why do banks stick to "know everything about every transaction" practice about 30 years after blind signature concept was introduced by David Chaum?
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
This is why Voucher-Safe is cash-only: because it enables the issuer to audit the receipts, but maintains full-anonymity and untraceability.
I don't get this. On the one hand they state their design goals is "Payments must be irrevocable and untraceable. It must be physically impossible for any component, even the VP (voucher publisher), to provide a transaction history for any user", and on the other hand all operations (validate, merge, split) require that the VSC (the client) supply the VP with a "Voucher Request" where new serial numbers are assigned to replacement vouchers. Looks like a contradiction to me.

That's because you are not educated on this subject:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Signatures

In fact, untraceable digital cash really is untraceable.
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
This is why Voucher-Safe is cash-only: because it enables the issuer to audit the receipts, but maintains full-anonymity and untraceability.
I don't get this. On the one hand they state their design goals is "Payments must be irrevocable and untraceable. It must be physically impossible for any component, even the VP (voucher publisher), to provide a transaction history for any user", and on the other hand all operations (validate, merge, split) require that the VSC (the client) supply the VP with a "Voucher Request" where new serial numbers are assigned to replacement vouchers. Looks like a contradiction to me.

I meant, in the long run, a centralized system that competes with the financial monopoly in place cannot survive in our current political and legal context.
Once Open Transactions grows to the point of threatening the advantages of the financial mob, it will be shutdown for any reason (non respect of KYC, AML,...)
I have to agree. Centralized = Doomed. The entire legal framework (incl. voucher-related) can be changed in a day if financial interests of such magnitude are threatened.
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