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Topic: [POLL] Does EVAN DUFFIELD regret instamining DRK/DASH at 100x emission? - page 24. (Read 31425 times)

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
You are still missing the point:

There were no error made in this coin but now there is an initiative to make some changes. Changes are always bad and changes destroy participant confidence even in case these changes are looking as useful. We have to be very careful before making any changes in coins Wink

In fact the coins were created at the rate specified in the original design but not what some people (myself included) thought was being discussed on the original thread. But in fact the coins did (and do) match the formula:

There are approximately 150k coins. There will likely be a "reverse stock split" turning these into 75k "new" coins at some point, because the mining reward is currently twice what is intended.

Ellipsis removed, we can now see that we were proposing to take the original 150k coins that were mined at the original rate, turn them into 75k using a reverse stock split, and then reduce the rate going forward. Later this was changed to a crowdfunding approach where the early miners would have donated half their coins to a bounty fund, but either way, they were not going to get to keep them (unlike Dash).

A necessary condition to actually do a curve switch is to collect excess coins from miners (see below).

The whole point of this proposal was to avoid being an instamine by not giving any advantage to the earliest miners (who would have had their faster-mined coin holdings cut in half).  This is exactly what was not done in Dash when the coin supply was cut by 75% but the original miners (including instaminers) got to keep all of their coins, which made the whole thing into a huge rip off (early holdings were arbitrarily multiplied by 4x)

In the end, however, no change was made. The Monero community decided to honor the original social contract and not reduce the emission rate. Exactly the opposite of Dash, which was not only instamined but had its emission rate cut (with no adjustment) and its supply cut after the fact by 75%.

Quote
But who really knows what went on at Bitmonero / Monero during its first few months.

It is quite clear what went on if you actually read the posts and don't quote selectively from them. There was no "scam launch" as you are calling it. Coins were created at a normal smooth rate according to the published formula right from the start (unlike Dash, which matched none of the several published formulas), when there was a proposal to change the curve going forward, an adjustment was going to be included to keep any early miners from having an advantage (again unlike Dash), and the coin supply was never drastically cut (again unlike Dash).

Monero is exactly the opposite of everything that happened in Dash.

Unlike Dash, Monero had:

1. No instamine due to bad difficulty adjustment
2. No instamine due to bugs creating extra coins that shouldn't exist at all (but were allowed to be kept anyway, unlike Bitcoin)
3. No proposal to change parameters without early miners forfeiting any advantage that would give them.
4. No cut to total supply target, multiplying the share of early-mined coins by 4x.
5. No reduction in the rate of emission, creating/increasing a retroactive instamine.

Case closed.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
Quote
Poor coins101, he's trying so hard.
That Dash snakeoil is a hard sale maybe he and his fellow Dashers should consider selling vacuum cleaners in future at least there is a chance of seeing a hot blond instead of a dark cave.

For the avoidance of doubt.

I asked very politely in the Monero thread a few days ago and again yesterday here for all of us to agree to disagree, and move on.

Smooth continued to wage a smear campaign. That is what this thread is, and he is leading the campaign.

So the facts needed to be explored to give some balance.  

He is the lead dev of a big and important crypto project. He should lead by good example because there are many people that look up to him as one of the lead devs.

Yet he maintains a white knight attitude that scams need to be uncovered. 'Ignoring a scam is in fact to be part of that scam'.

So now we find our White Knight who patrols the threads calling every project a scam, is actually up to his neck in it.

If you think I have a personal hatred of Smooth, then you are wrong. A few weeks ago I was defending him, until I was pointed to his smear campaign.

....
I'm not 100% sure smooth has been trolling, but I haven't read all his posts.

From my experience with seeing smooth in various threads, he strikes me as being an asset to any project. But I'll defer to the views of those here who have seen most of his posts.

But who really knows what went on at Bitmonero / Monero during its first few months. All we know is that there was a Proven Monero Scam Launch.

I have no truck with anyone else from Monero or the project. Good luck to you all.
full member
Activity: 288
Merit: 102
Yin Yang religion of wisdom, harmony
Quote
Poor coins101, he's trying so hard.
That Dash snakeoil is a hard sale maybe he and his fellow Dashers should consider selling vacuum cleaners in future at least there is a chance of seeing a hot blond instead of a dark cave.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
@coins101

I suggest you look at a block explorer, or better yet the blockc....hain itself. The rate is exactly what was intended and published (unlike the coin that is the topic if this thread).  Tacotime misunderstood, but you are making a fool of yourself.

No. Let's look at what the younger Smooth said at the time:

....here will likely be a "reverse stock split" turning these into 75k "new" coins at some point, because the mining reward is currently twice what is intended.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6364320

And here:

Quote from: smooth
It's not debasement. Debasement is issuing more coins, making existing coins worth less. The proposed bug fix is essentially a reverse stock split where every two old coins are exchanged for one new coin.

The extra coins being combined into one coin are coins you should not have received under the "close to Bitcoin's original curve" schedule that was advertised. To argue that bugs can't be fixed is absurd.

If there were a bug that gave some people a million extra coins for no reason in bitcoin or any other coin, you can bet there would be a fix to remove those coins.

As you say, this is all an experiment. If people abandon the coin in droves because of the reverse split, then that will be a useful experiment and we can all get on with our lives with some other coin. Most of us believe that the value of a coin with the cryptonote feature set, no-premine, no-instamine, no-tax, and a bitcoin-like reward schedule is compelling. We'll see if that turns out to be correct.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6364494

You decided not to stop, fix, fork and relaunch. You have to own the Proven Monero Scam Launch.

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
@coins101

I suggest you look at a block explorer, or better yet the blockchain itself. The rate is exactly what was intended and published (unlike the coin that is the topic if this thread).  Tacotime misunderstood, but you are making a fool of yourself.
hero member
Activity: 605
Merit: 500
Poor coins101, he's trying so hard.

His underlying message: stop talking about Evan's massive instamine fraud and criminal deception because...... Monero. The 4 choices in the OP seem fairly unbiased. Vote and stop trying to derail the thread.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
Seems to me like there are several people here taking things out of context. I'm just presenting facts.

But, let's keep going with the Proven Monero Scam Launch.

The Proven Monero Scam Launch, has its first bug introduced to skew the mining even more (was there any real need, the de-optimized code wasn't enough?)

so, should we stop mining or what?  Huh i just found a block few hours back

The current situation is that someone disabled mempool and forked the chain so that the invalid tx doesn't get in the way. But the difficulty hasn't changed much so blocks are being found much more rarely than 1 minute. So you can mine, it's just very slow. A few people are on the freenode channel trying to solve the cause of the problem.

What was the bug?

..I also feel that there is a great opportunity here that has been missed. You and thankful could have collaborated and brought bytecoin 2.0. A coin that builds onThe previous version. A gui, mac bineries. And accessible windows bineries. The link at the begging does not work.
...

... we can provide that as well on our totally not non-existent website.

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, this coin release feels a bit rushed, like others have mentioned. Seems some botnet has moved in too, given how high the difficulty is :/

Thank you Mr. Botnet for helping us secure the block chain.


Thanks Mr. Botnet? Possibly, you mean thanks Santa Claus for bringing some early gifts to those few who knew what was really going on.

So, dear reader. The pot is calling the kettle black. Lead devs using bully boy tactics and smears can work great if you have an agenda.  But make sure when you throw stones, that your house is not made of glass.

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Once upon a time Darkcoin was fair, but now probably because it is way ahead, its not fair:

...To be fair there is an advantage to DarkCoin not using any new crypto, and I would mention that to maintain a bit of balance. Ring signatures are not new, but they haven't been used in exactly this way before, and the implementation is also immature, so there are risks here.
...

Are you, dear reader, beginning to smell the bullshit now?

No, unless you mean the bullshit of you taking quotes out of context and interpreting them deceptively (2nd time at least).

I never said Darkcoin was fair, I said that using Bitcoins cryptography was, by itself, an advantage in risk reduction over something new. Of course masternodes are new code too, so there's risk introduced relative to Bitcoin in both coins.

At that point I didn't know anything about how unfair and shady darkcoin was. I wasn't following it at all really, didn't know about the instamine, and never did until Evan took his instamined wealth and used it to piss over the (real) Dashcoin community.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
Once upon a time Darkcoin was fair, but now probably because it is way ahead, its not fair:

...To be fair there is an advantage to DarkCoin not using any new crypto, and I would mention that to maintain a bit of balance. Ring signatures are not new, but they haven't been used in exactly this way before, and the implementation is also immature, so there are risks here.
...

Are you, dear reader, beginning to smell the bullshit now?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198

And indeed wasn't fair, on a number of fronts:

......This looks unfair to noobs

Interesting quote. Let's look at what inconvenient truth is hiding behind that odd looking ellipsis you put there:

I dont know how to compile anything. There should be something like ticking a box to start mining on a gui wallet. This looks unfair to noobs

Would that user have been able to mine Dash during the instamine?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Oh, yes. Windows was ready.

...

The Windows build seems kinda buggy...

It gets, better. It's not just buggy, it didn't work:

....Actually coming from Unix/Linux I don't mind command line applications, but at least the documentation should be correct and the script posted in the Windows tutorial does NOT work.
..


Incorrect. There was nothing wrong with the Windows build, the user was just being impatient. The Linux version gives the same error if you try to start mining before syncing to the network, as explained by a helpful user right away:

It is important to wait until bitmonerod sync before start mining.  You will see message like:

You are now synchronized with the network. You may now start simplewallet.

Please note, that the blockchain will be saved only after you quit the daemon wi
th "exit" command or if you use "save" command.
Otherwise, you will possibly need to synchronize the blockchain again.


Then ready to mine.  Let know if this fixes issue. 

Followed by:

so thanks for your help.

So you have working?  If so thats good.  I am glad to help.  Good luck mining! Smiley

I understand there were some bugs having to do with mining during the Dash launch, and weren't so easy to fix by syncing before mining. Is that correct?

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Oh, I like this guy who commented about the Proven Monero Scam Launch:

ninja launch with new algo

meh...

Let's have a new *** for Monero: ninja

No. No. No Ninja launch at all:

ninja launch with new algo

meh...

What are you even talking about?
...
2. Not a ninja launch (was preannounced, was delayed to get Windows binaries ready, etc.)

I'm wondering coins101, did Dash have Windows binaries at launch? Did Evan delay the launch 12 hours to have Windows binaries ready, the way TFT did (one of the few things he ever did right), or did he instead launch an instamine of a million or so coins in a few hours with no Windows binaries released? Which is it?

I say we wait and see what happens over the next week or two. I'm pretty sure you are right about shitcoin central, no matter what we do here.

Do you have any idea what was being discussed there? (I'm betting you don't.) I was concerned about the stability of the network with the fast 1 minute blocks. It turned out my concerns were somewhat overblown and it wasn't an especially serious problem in practice.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
.....but it could easily have been relaunched/halted after just a few hours...... which is totally different from proposing relaunching something after 2 weeks with an active community and a lot of BTC already traded for it....

It is very convenient to say one dev should have relaunched, when you should have done the same thing with the Proven Monero Scam Launch, but you decided not to:

I say we wait and see what happens over the next week or two. I'm pretty sure you are right about shitcoin central, no matter what we do here.



Maybe you missed my question.  Roll Eyes Do you have numbers to back your claim or is supposition enough for you?

Coins101, I'm still waiting ^
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
Oh, I like this guy who commented about the Proven Monero Scam Launch:

ninja launch with new algo

meh...

Let's have a new *** for Monero: ninja

No. No. No Ninja launch at all:

ninja launch with new algo

meh...

What are you even talking about?
...
2. Not a ninja launch (was preannounced, was delayed to get Windows binaries ready, etc.)

Oh, yes. Windows was ready.

...

The Windows build seems kinda buggy...

It gets, better. It's not just buggy, it didn't work:

....Actually coming from Unix/Linux I don't mind command line applications, but at least the documentation should be correct and the script posted in the Windows tutorial does NOT work.
..

And indeed wasn't fair, on a number of fronts:

......This looks unfair to noobs

But maybe the windows build was also crippled to prevent people from mining? Who knows. Questions beyond crippled miners are emerging now.

The plot thickens, dear reader.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
.....but it could easily have been relaunched/halted after just a few hours...... which is totally different from proposing relaunching something after 2 weeks with an active community and a lot of BTC already traded for it....

It is very convenient to say one dev should have relaunched, when you should have done the same thing with the Proven Monero Scam Launch, but you decided not to:

I say we wait and see what happens over the next week or two. I'm pretty sure you are right about shitcoin central, no matter what we do here.



Maybe you missed my question.  Roll Eyes Do you have numbers to back your claim or is supposition enough for you?
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
.....but it could easily have been relaunched/halted after just a few hours...... which is totally different from proposing relaunching something after 2 weeks with an active community and a lot of BTC already traded for it....

It is very convenient to say one dev should have relaunched, and in the same sentence say Monero couldn't relaunch because of the passage of two weeks.

You should have stopped, fixed and relaunched the Proven Monero Scam Launch, but it was you who decided not to:

I say we wait and see what happens over the next week or two. I'm pretty sure you are right about shitcoin central, no matter what we do here.

legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
*****PLOT TWIST ALERT****

We, well. So now the Proven Monero Scam Launch (tm), was a scam launch, but it just wasn't that bad of a scam.

Oh, my. This Proven Monero Scam Launch (tm) is the gift that just keeps giving, still.

Do you have numbers to back your claim or is supposition enough for you?

legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
*****PLOT TWIST ALERT****

We, well. So now the Proven Monero Scam Launch (tm), was a scam launch, but it just wasn't that bad of a scam.

Oh, my. This Proven Monero Scam Launch (tm) is the gift that just keeps giving, still.

...
There was no significant number of scammed coins......


'It was a scam launch, but we don't mind that much. We want to focus on smearing the lead dev of the project we consider the main competitor.' (see still on topic)



No, I'm sure you don't mind benefiting from a Proven Scam Launch.

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198

Your trolling is illogical. Why would someone restart the blockchain when it's already been used by countless people since it's release? Restarting it at that point would be scam-like.

Unlike Dash, where it had more than enough time to restart the blockchain during it's 2 day instamine scam.
Countless people? In what, 2 weeks? Please  Roll Eyes

Yeah the flocking of people to the coin was really very fast. For one thing there was a built in interest base of people who were already following/mining/trading BCN and wanted a new non-premined fork, so they came over right away (most or all of the core team came from that). For another, the big pump of DRK was starting. Anon was hot. Monero was the hot new anon.

The OTC thread started Apr 21, and there was a lot of trading on it right away. Check the ticker: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/closed-mro-monero-trading-thread-and-otc-xchg-578192

Please stop the thread derailing though Brilliantrocket. You're not one of these rabid attack-the-attacker Dash fanboy types, so you know better. If you doubt the early history of Monero, create a thread for that.

Also, btw, as I pointed out earlier, the Dash instamine scam was mostly 1-day not 2-days, and most of even the first day was within a few hours. It shouldn't have been launched at all, by Evans own promises, but it could easily have been relaunched/halted after just a few hours to get rid of what was already an enormous instamine mess (million coins or so after a few hours), which is totally different from proposing relaunching something after 2 weeks with an active community and a lot of BTC already traded for it because of some code in the miner that we don't know even did anything at all (and if it did, it wasn't much, as I explained).
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198

Do you regret releasing a scam miner for the monero launch? Do you regret not taking more time to actually evaluate the code of the coin you took over or did you profit greatly from the scam as well? I wonder if you regret those actions.

Your upset because you dev a coin that is not doing well compared to its competitors. Instead of actually competing, you decide to sling mud.

Smooth, why didn't you re-release Monero once you found out about the scam miner? Also, do you regret the scam miner? I'ts just a simple question, as simple as the one asked in this OP.

He can say that he doesn't regret it, because officially it was TFT who started Monero. By having his confederate (or alter ego?) do the deed, Smooth has removed himself from overt blame. Relaunch it? No, because then all of his scammed coins would disappear.

There was no significant number of scammed coins at all. The mining proceeded at the usual slow pace, with a large number of people mining and posting on the thread. Even if I were TFT (of course I'm not, and had nothing to do with him, and no one credibly believes that I am), I wouldn't have gotten much.

As for the claim that somehow people getting 1-2 blocks per day was an indication of malfeasance, think about the numbers. There are 1440 blocks per day. If a computer gets 1-2 blocks per day that is something like 1000 desktops mining it, which isn't many at all, considering the dozens of people posting about mining on the thread and miners using server farms and cloud nodes (one large cloud nodes was equal to roughly 4 desktops). That's the normal amount you would expect. So again, this is evidence against any (significant) scam mining actually going on, not in favor.
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