Primedice.com | Since 2013 | Longest Running Crypto Casino | 113 BTC Jackpot! - page 1631.

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Quote from: Zaih on June 05, 2013, 05:36:52 AM

I still think the easiest way to do this would to be simply allowing the user to choose a client seed AFTER being assigned a server seed. That also allows simple minds (Like myself heh) the ability to easily understand & comprehend the concept. The whole JS assigning a client seed transcends me lol

It doesn't matter what seed you choose. As long as the server does not know it, it's OK.

Quote

I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.

Easy. It uses [txid] + nonce. The TXID is supplied by the player. The server seed is updated once a day, and is global. So while the server *can* know next results in advance, it cannot change it after knowing the results (see Provably Fair rule #3). Secrets has being generated until 2023, so Coinroll.it is provably fair.

ghibly79

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:36:09 AM

Quote from: ghibly79 on June 05, 2013, 05:34:47 AM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:33:15 AM

Quote from: ghibly79 on June 05, 2013, 05:31:21 AM

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there).

Huh? You can change your client seed now.

The client cannot exploit it, he does not know the server seed (only the hash of it).

See this: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-guide-to-how-provably-fair-works-161236

Provably fair means:

1. Player can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.
2. Casino can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.

3. Player can prove the casino did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result
4. Casino can prove the player did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result

Currently, 3 is not true for PrimeDice.com as PrimeDice knows what each roll would be assuming default client seed. Making the default client seed generated by the client (rather than the server) would make it provably fair.

Yes, you are right. I'm pretty new to the concept, thx for the good explanation (was missing the "client doesn't know server seed, only the hash of it Wink

).

hasher87

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Quote from: Zaih on June 05, 2013, 05:39:07 AM

Quote from: BigBitz on June 05, 2013, 05:38:10 AM

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.

again, i cant explain much on that, but hey at least the nonces is already fixed with an increment of 1 on every bet, unlike primedice

Quote

Each bet can be verified using the day's secret and the last deposit's TXID. To produce a stream of numbers a nonce is appended which is incremented by 1 on every bet. The nonce is reset to 0 on every deposit.

The lucky number is computed by the first 4 hex digits of hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce)

hasher87

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Quote from: BigBitz on June 05, 2013, 05:36:18 AM

So how does "PrimeDice" make itself able to use "Provably Fair"

this isn't sour grapes btw. I've lost 10BTC+ as this thread knows Tongue

I could use some of those 10BTC to pay up for my car deposit lol

no seriously i would do that tho Tongue

Zaih

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Quote from: BigBitz on June 05, 2013, 05:38:10 AM

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.

BigBitz

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Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

Zaih

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Activity: 504

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I still think the easiest way to do this would to be simply allowing the user to choose a client seed AFTER being assigned a server seed. That also allows simple minds (Like myself heh) the ability to easily understand & comprehend the concept. The whole JS assigning a client seed transcends me lol

BigBitz

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So how does "PrimeDice" make itself able to use "Provably Fair"

this isn't sour grapes btw. I've lost 10BTC+ as this thread knows Tongue

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Quote from: ghibly79 on June 05, 2013, 05:34:47 AM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:33:15 AM

Quote from: ghibly79 on June 05, 2013, 05:31:21 AM

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there).

Huh? You can change your client seed now.

The client cannot exploit it, he does not know the server seed (only the hash of it).

See this: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-guide-to-how-provably-fair-works-161236

Provably fair means:

1. Player can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.
2. Casino can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.

3. Player can prove the casino did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result
4. Casino can prove the player did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result

Currently, 3 is not true for PrimeDice.com as PrimeDice knows what each roll would be assuming default client seed. Making the default client seed generated by the client (rather than the server) would make it provably fair.

ghibly79

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:33:15 AM

Quote from: ghibly79 on June 05, 2013, 05:31:21 AM

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

~~On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there).~~ (explained thx)

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Quote from: ghibly79 on June 05, 2013, 05:31:21 AM

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

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Quote from: Zaih on June 05, 2013, 05:29:57 AM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:27:13 AM

To make it really provably fair.

But wouldn't the server still know the client seed beforehand? I'd think you would have to allow the user/client to be the one to enter it?

No.

The seed would be determined by the client using client JS. The server will not know.

This is how SatoshiDICE, Bitzino works. The player supplies a TXID (fun fact: TXIDs are just hashes, and are pretty much random), or the client JS generates a random seed.

ghibly79

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That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent. (though casinò owner can't predict when a customer will withdraw, so even if it want's to manipulate rolls in a non obvious way to profit it'll be tricky). (explained thx)

Zaih

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Quote from: hasher87 on June 05, 2013, 05:29:16 AM

Quote from: BigBitz on June 05, 2013, 05:13:08 AM

Quote from: hasher87 on June 05, 2013, 05:09:56 AM

Quote from: BigBitz on June 05, 2013, 05:05:19 AM

Another 9 losses out of 10.

I'm beginning to think PrimeDice has it in for me. Undecided

Code:

1 minute ago 50.5 2 0.30000000 Lose 48.33
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.21915206 Lose 44.71
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Win 64.61
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 45.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 23.78
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 5.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 32.74
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 40.24
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 46.72
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 36.38

this is why i preferred with coinroll due to this reason

prepared server-roll seed = doom

wait, what, PREPARED?

It's PRE_ROLLED?

are you fucking joking me?

I've lost over 10BTC on this site and it's not mentioned anywhere it's pre rolled?!

i wouldn't say its 'PRE-ROLLED' to be exact, but this is what bugs me a bit

Quote

Server seed for next roll:
ee69b2a8d6dec664ee0d1fc7e

I'll stick to coinroll for now. hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce) seems more legit

Correct me if I'm wrong, but coinroll knows the secret, knows the last deposit ID, what's stopping them from assigning a nonce that gives them a win? (Shoot me down if I'm missing a vital concept)

Zaih

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:27:13 AM

To make it really provably fair.

But wouldn't the server still know the client seed beforehand? I'd think you would have to allow the user/client to be the one to enter it?

hasher87

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Quote from: BigBitz on June 05, 2013, 05:13:08 AM

Quote from: hasher87 on June 05, 2013, 05:09:56 AM

Quote from: BigBitz on June 05, 2013, 05:05:19 AM

Another 9 losses out of 10.

I'm beginning to think PrimeDice has it in for me. Undecided

Code:

1 minute ago	50.5	2	0.30000000	Lose	48.33
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.21915206	Lose	44.71
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Win	64.61
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Lose	45.85
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Lose	23.78
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Lose	5.85
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Lose	32.74
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Lose	40.24
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Lose	46.72
2 minutes ago	50.5	2	0.10000000	Lose	36.38

this is why i preferred with coinroll due to this reason

prepared server-roll seed = doom

wait, what, PREPARED?

It's PRE_ROLLED?

are you fucking joking me?

I've lost over 10BTC on this site and it's not mentioned anywhere it's pre rolled?!

i wouldn't say its 'PRE-ROLLED' to be exact, but this is what bugs me a bit

Quote

Server seed for next roll:
ee69b2a8d6dec664ee0d1fc7e

I'll stick to coinroll for now. hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce) seems more legit

BigBitz

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:27:13 AM

To make it really provably fair.

It seems to me I have a lost a considerable amount of coin to a game which appears to be pre-determined.

Shocked

That's shocking.

I shall not use PrimeDice.com again

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

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To make it really provably fair.

BigBitz

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Activity: 672

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I use different addresses each time so I don't have a list of them all Undecided

I withdraw to my coinlenders.com account so that changes every deposit.

this series of rolls was under:

https://primedice.com/bets.php?user=fcfeb752748cd29521e174ef53147193&limit=200

Zaih

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on June 05, 2013, 05:25:25 AM

Currently, the server knows the result if the user does not change the client seed. As something like 99% of users don't even know you can do that, this game is not provably fair. Not saying that it's cheating, but it's not provably fair.

It would literally take 1 line of code. Not securely random, but random enough as the client seed:

var clientSeed = Math.random();

1 line of code to fix or to cheat?

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