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Topic: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? - page 6. (Read 15847 times)

member
Activity: 210
Merit: 26
High fees = low BTC price
January 24, 2018, 07:52:51 PM
No, because PoS doesn't work as a decentralised consensus.

The banking hubs coming with Lightning Network are not really decentralized and become a single point of failure
anyway if you only open one channel and personally I can accept a cluster of specialized nodes inside the bitcoin
network and it does not mean that Alan Greenspan owns it but he might like to own some of the banking nodes we
have coming.

NEO has some interesting concepts and they have separated the network from the currency and Ripple
has done the same with PoW being dropped by everyone as far as I know in the newer systems or 3rd generation
as they call it.
full member
Activity: 351
Merit: 134
January 24, 2018, 10:39:45 AM
PoW has been shown, in bitcoin, to centralize, and we know the economic reason for that: "economies of scale". 

No. PoW in bitcoin has shown to be a trustless, reliable proxy for elapsed time.

- cryptographically not very secure.  Indeed, the cryptographic security resides solely in the need for an external attacker to do a *similar* amount of work than was needed to generate the security in the first place. 

Firstly, 'cryptographic security' is the wrong term for what you are trying to describe. Secondly the security of a PoW chain is not based on doing a 'similar' amount of work, but to do more work than the rest of the miners in the network combined. That is indeed, 'vastly' more work.

But that is what a crypto currency should be: entirely determined by its owners.  It is very strange to have a crypto currency that is depending on an external industry, and of which the users are not making up the consensus.  A PoW coin is very much exposed to an external attack, while a PoS coin is cryptographically secure against an external attack.  It can of course suffer *internal* attacks. 

Again, you're misusing 'cryptographically secure' and even if we take your intended meaning, your statement is still wrong as PoS coins are vulnerable to a much broader range of attacks than PoW coins, both external and internal. Please see this thread for details:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/proof-that-proof-of-stake-is-either-extremely-vulnerable-or-totally-centralised-1382241

There is a paper describing a provably secure PoS chain, but even the author concedes that it can only be that way if a majority of honest nodes remain online. This is not a very resilient design, especially in the face of power cuts, wars and 'force majeure'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that bitcoin is a success - the network is congested beyond usability, but PoW remains the only trustless solution to the byzantine generals problem.

Cheers, Paul.

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
January 24, 2018, 03:08:21 AM
I think it is hard to imagine that they will reach consensus to move to POS after so much money is invested in POW infrastructure.

The move to PoS will of course not be done by miners, by definition.  It will also obviously be a hard fork.  There's no way to implement PoS by a soft fork.  So the obvious way for PoS bitcoin to emerge, is to do a hard fork.  Those wanting to remain on the PoW coin will do so (and the miners will of course be part of it), and sell their PoS coin version.  Those wanting to do PoS will sell their PoW version.

The only question that remains is simply: which prong of the fork will be entitled to the brand name "bitcoin".  This will be an exchange's decision.  If exchanges decide to call the newly implemented features "bitcoin", then bitcoin will "have switched to PoS" and the original one will now be labeled an "alt coin" (bitcoinhash or something).  If exchanges decide to keep the original bitcoin line called bitcoin, then the PoS version will be an "alt coin (bitcoinstake or something).  Most probably, the monopoly to the name "bitcoin" will be decided by the few people that have pushing rights on the bitcoin core centralized Github archive.  That's how the original bitcoin now became an alt coin, called, bitcoin cash, and the new version with other segwit technology, remained bitcoin.

As the market is quite technology-ignorant, and very brand-name sensitive, this will be an oligarchic decision between 10 or 20 deciding entities.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
January 24, 2018, 02:53:22 AM
I think I Finally understand why Proof of Stake may be a bad idea. No wonder some elites promote Ethereum so much these days. Correct me if am wrong, PoS could sort of encourage centralization of Cryptocurrency.

Better Bitcoin stick with Proof of Work no matter the cost.


Because this is "decentralized" according to you ?

https://blockchain.info/pools

3 pools have majority.

5 pools have more than 75% hash rate.

10 pools have essentially all hash rate.

Duh. Decentralized, my a**.

I know that these are just the "pools".  But the "pool owner" is the one that decides what is done with the hash rate he buys from miners.  He's the one that decides on what block to mine, and what block to make.  Most miners don't even know what block their pool is mining on, or is constructing: they simply sell hash power to the pool.  Hell, most miners simply buy mining equipment and connect it, without knowing zilch of what's going on in their devices.

By the time miners realise what the pool is doing with their hash power, the attack may already be over.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
January 24, 2018, 02:50:17 AM
It's amazing that you can do that for only 400-800M, what if some rich dudes decide to do that just for fun?

What do you think is the solution for PoS to prevent that?

This is why all these discussions about "absolute consensus security" are moot.  In reality, people forget that
1)there is a market
2) there are news feeds
3) that you can't do that unnoticed (some people will have "old copies of the block chain")

What these consensus algorithms do, is to prevent some moderate-sized hacker group to overthrow the system.  But if a major player really, really wants to (think, government(s), very rich entities, ....) none of this stands, unless we scale up to ridiculous sizes.  The only way to be absolutely sure that there cannot be a PoW attack, is to have a PoW that indicates that we use, say, 80% of earth's power production.  With the remaining 20%, to run the whole economy that remains (you know, making food, building houses, ....) there's no room to do an attack.  This is what PoW would converge us to (and destroy entirely human economy) if it would be all-encompassing.  If tomorrow, we all use bitcoin for all of our monetary affairs, that's the state we'll converge to, in an unavoidable way.
And anything less is fundamentally attackable.

There's one thing people forget: after such an attack, which will be noticed, the coin is dead.  There's no point doing an attack with the hope of being rich on the chain, because the market will kill it.  And THAT's what makes that all these imperfect algorithms actually work in practice.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
January 24, 2018, 01:40:57 AM
DO you guys ever think that bitcoin will do proof of stake? Just wanted to get some peoples insights on this.

No, because PoS doesn't work as a decentralised consensus.

PoW has been shown, in bitcoin, to centralize, and we know the economic reason for that: "economies of scale". 

The problems, as seen in bitcoin, with PoW, are the following:

- hugely wasteful if the market cap grows.  The amount of wasted hardware and power is gigantic, and is an economic necessity in PoW schemes.  I don't know how accurate it is, but it is said that bitcoin is using about the electricity of Denmark.  That's crazy.  Scale this up a factor of 100 (full adoption of PoW coins all over the world) and most of our power production on earth would simply serve to make a piece of data.  Crazy.

- the industrial proportions that mining takes, splits the eco-system in an industry of block chain providers on one hand, and a set of customers (users wanting to do transactions) on the other side.  As a coin owner, you are at the mercy of the miner industrial complex for them to make a block chain and put your transaction in

- obvious centralization, due to economies of scale.  Bitcoin's consensus mechanism is entirely centralized on a few pools.

- cryptographically not very secure.  Indeed, the cryptographic security resides solely in the need for an external attacker to do a *similar* amount of work than was needed to generate the security in the first place.  This is unseen: good cryptography normally requires an attacker to spend *immensely more* work to break a cryptographic seal than was needed to make it.  This is also why proof of work will end up needing the majority of electricity consumption on earth: to avoid that another majority can exist and overdo it.  But at the same time, industries on such a scale are always under a central control, and cannot go "underground".  You can calculate digital signatures in your basement, but if you need 60% of a country's energy for mining, that will obviously have governmental implications.

Quote
Every single PoS coin is a private club, with trusted owners, much like Visa the company is.

But that is what a crypto currency should be: entirely determined by its owners.  It is very strange to have a crypto currency that is depending on an external industry, and of which the users are not making up the consensus.  A PoW coin is very much exposed to an external attack, while a PoS coin is cryptographically secure against an external attack.  It can of course suffer *internal* attacks. 

However, we forget one thing if we discuss all these schemes of attack: that is: the market. It is assumed that "stake holders" are a priori motivated to keep the value of a coin more than external agents.  It is true that this is more complicated if in the financial markets, you can short against the coin, but that's even more true for external attacks.  If you have high stakes in a coin because you own it, it would be somewhat stupid to use that stake to destroy it in the market (any successful long range attack will of course entirely destroy it in the market).

Quote
When you invest in a PoS coin you are being tricked into thinking you're investing in the future, when actually you're investing something that can never work as designed.

That's just as well the case for a PoW coin.  PoW doesn't work as designed.  In bitcoin, it is now entirely centralized, it is hugely wasteful, and honestly, it could easily be attacked by a collusion of 5 or 6 mining pools.  The day that the mining pool owners massively short bitcoin, they might be inclined to do some stupid things, simply to kill it.  Maybe they even get some money from the Chinese government for doing so on top of their shorting.

There are no absolute and decentralized secure mechanisms of consensus building.  This is even a theorem.  But some do kind of work, because we are not in a totally decentralized world, there are market interests and all that.  Bitcoin most probably would even continue to work correctly, even if mining were in the hands of 2 or 3 people (in fact, we're not very far from that case).  Simply because they have stakes in it, it is their business.  With proof of stake too.  Because in the end, the "long range attack" would oblige all on-line nodes to accept reorganising the chain over a long line.  Most simply won't.  You can easily "lock in" the blocks of yesterday and decide not to accept a reorganisation that goes back to yesterday if you are online.  Contrary to PoW, where the full non-mining nodes have nothing to say, with PoS, that is not the case, as all users are staking ("mining").

The PoS algorithm simply needs to take into account certain cases.  And yes, it won't be entirely secure, as no consensus algorithm is entirely secure.

newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
December 17, 2017, 04:06:58 PM
Bitcoin will definitely go to the proof of stake someday. It is quite better than ETH, which will eventually go to the former soon.
member
Activity: 392
Merit: 41
This text is irrelevant
December 06, 2017, 05:20:41 AM
It will be good for the environment as it saves energy. However, it may be very hard for bitcoin to make a big change like that. It is more possible that a fork of bitcoin that uses POS.
Priorities are different for that matter.
I don't hate an environment, quite the opposite, but unless POS will work as robust and bulletproof as POW working now it's not feasible to switch just for the sake of saving environment (also demise of bitcoin sized market won't be good for the environment either).

Also with wake of solar energy I assume miners won't be hurting environment as much as they do now in 15-10 years.
full member
Activity: 208
Merit: 100
December 05, 2017, 11:36:39 PM
It will be good for the environment as it saves energy. However, it may be very hard for bitcoin to make a big change like that. It is more possible that a fork of bitcoin that uses POS.
Ucy
sr. member
Activity: 2576
Merit: 401
December 05, 2017, 07:29:26 AM
Guess Bitcoin could experiment with both Proof of Stake & Proof of Works.
I find PoS a bit suspicious though. It seems like it could seriously Centralize the Network.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
December 05, 2017, 05:53:42 AM
And even with a swap you can't spend the btc in POS someday, you think? That said, it would be less and less for minors, not sure if they accept...
member
Activity: 392
Merit: 41
This text is irrelevant
December 05, 2017, 02:42:21 AM
Hybrid PoW and PoS will be good to secure a blockchain.
Not everyone can buy special hardware for mining. PoS allows ordinary users with ordinary PC to stake their coins and secure the blockchain as well.


Currently all proposed POS algorithms are flawed (some to ludicrous extent, allowing one validator to seize control over whole block chain). Ethereum is struggling to develop reliable POS by implementing slashing condition but we yet to see if it will be efficient POS or ETH demise. Right now BitCoin have some issues but definitely isn't broken and working just as it was designed. Implementing POS would almost surely break it. And wise man once said "Don't fix what isn't broken!"
full member
Activity: 588
Merit: 107
December 05, 2017, 01:51:07 AM
Hybrid PoW and PoS will be good to secure a blockchain.
Not everyone can buy special hardware for mining. PoS allows ordinary users with ordinary PC to stake their coins and secure the blockchain as well.
hero member
Activity: 2744
Merit: 541
Campaign Management?"Hhampuz" is the Man
December 04, 2017, 11:07:00 PM
DO you guys ever think that bitcoin will do proof of stake? Just wanted to get some peoples insights on this.
No.

Unless there was an update through Bitcoins final development there wouldn’t be any PoS implemented into Bitcoin because there’s already altcoins that feature that concept. There wouldn’t be any point for Bitcoin to get a PoS coded into it because Bitcoin is already capped at 21 million coins.

Plus, if there was a PoS code placed into Bitcoin then the transactions within Bitcoin’s Blockchain would be cluttered because there isn’t that many miners that can keep up with the competitive mining difficulty that Bitcoin has.

If you are spending 0.0001 Bitcoin for transactions you would have to spend much more to get your transactions confirmed.

its not possible to put POS for decentralized system,and i believe
lots of users will disagree about this matter,same as the fees upon transaction
will get higher.so for me this will only be effective if the bitcoin community will
allow this that i surely know they wont.
full member
Activity: 700
Merit: 110
Helios Protocol https://discord.gg/cpzAEMB
December 04, 2017, 09:36:40 AM
I can’t see that ever happening as the investment now to hold a representative amount of coins is simply to large for anyone that didn’t get started early 2016 or before.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 11
November 27, 2017, 07:44:21 PM
Actually, i dont believe that BTC will move to Proof of stake. It`s really hard to believe because of its specifical essence
newbie
Activity: 46
Merit: 0
October 28, 2017, 02:59:00 PM
I don't think that PoS is good for bitcoin. PoS is for shitcoins.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 28, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
There is a nothing at stake problem regarding identifying the true chain from genesis when an unknown number of sybils can create a false history with no cost.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2017, 10:53:26 AM
I think it is hard to imagine that they will reach consensus to move to POS after so much money is invested in POW infrastructure.
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 261
October 27, 2017, 03:00:28 AM
#99
Some serious developer says pos coin. Has flaws by design and is not recommended for serious network
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