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Topic: Proof of Stake Bitcoin? - page 8. (Read 15932 times)

hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
September 10, 2017, 05:53:25 AM
#78
That is too deep of a coding change and I don't even think that can be pulled off as a fork. If you were really interested in creating this type of system then what you could do is create your own website, back it with a huge chunk of change add offer the service of a savings account for Bitcoin.

And with the wrong turn of luck you could end up with your very own 1930s depression with too many people try to take their coins out of your Institution and you have them invested elsewhere. You could actually guard against this a little bit by having a pretty high minimum withdrawal. And believe it or not you would actually make some money off of deposit that people make and completely forget about or walk away from.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
September 09, 2017, 02:38:06 AM
#77
That is a completely different coin. It is too big of a change to implement and there are too many other options that produce the same end results. There are a number of sites that act as a small saving bank for bitcoin and there are other ways to get to the end using a method that does not involve flipping the coins completely.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
GigTricks.io | A CRYPTO ECOSYSTEM FOR ON-DEMAND EC
September 09, 2017, 01:48:39 AM
#76
I don't think this will not be a good news for the incoming miners, and i also believe people will not be allowing this to happen. I don't think Bitcoin will follow the move of ETH doing the same thing. since many coins are in ETH platform so i think that's the reason why eth decided to go for PoS.
newbie
Activity: 36
Merit: 0
September 09, 2017, 01:17:24 AM
#75
Proof of Stake is a proposed alternative to Proof of Work. Like proof of work, proof of stake attempts to provide consensus and doublespend prevention (see "main" bitcointalk thread, and a Bounty Thread). Because creating forks is costless when you aren't burning an external resource Proof of Stake alone is considered to an unworkable consensus mechanism.
sr. member
Activity: 840
Merit: 266
September 08, 2017, 03:31:52 PM
#74
I do not think that this can ever happen . I also think that it would be really bad for BTC if by any chance this happen someday in the future ( i HIGHLY HIGHLY DOUBT )
legendary
Activity: 1937
Merit: 1001
September 07, 2017, 01:35:35 PM
#73
Gosh all this nonsense about PoW vs PoS.
They only way crypto can really work is by using x-byzantine-fault-tolerance, resolving the problems of both PoW and PoS.

I found an article on Byzantine fault tolerance on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault_tolerance#In_practice
Is this what you are referring to?
I haven't read it, but I see that they say that one example of it is Bitcoin.

Here is some beginner material:
https://themerkle.com/what-is-delegated-byzantine-fault-tolerance/
https://cryptoinsider.com/byzantine-fault-tolerance-blockchain-systems/
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 389
Do not trust the government
September 07, 2017, 10:14:22 AM
#72
Gosh all this nonsense about PoW vs PoS.
They only way crypto can really work is by using x-byzantine-fault-tolerance, resolving the problems of both PoW and PoS.

I found an article on Byzantine fault tolerance on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault_tolerance#In_practice
Is this what you are referring to?
I haven't read it, but I see that they say that one example of it is Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1937
Merit: 1001
September 07, 2017, 08:46:02 AM
#71
Gosh all this nonsense about PoW vs PoS.
They only way crypto can really work is by using x-byzantine-fault-tolerance, resolving the problems of both PoW and PoS.
member
Activity: 109
Merit: 11
September 07, 2017, 05:56:38 AM
#70
DO you guys ever think that bitcoin will do proof of stake? Just wanted to get some peoples insights on this.

I think "proof of stake" should be with the work! The system of nodes in the Dash coin is unique and quite decentralized! I think this is the best implementation of this work.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
September 05, 2017, 08:43:13 PM
#69
i don't think btc will move to Proof of stake  Cool
hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 538
September 02, 2017, 01:03:40 AM
#68
People put their big coins in, and you pay monthly interest, which is basically the same as staking. There's a good possibility you could even make some money off of it, but you would have to act the way that Banks do and Leverage that overall lump of coins that are in your possession to create a greater return to the interest you're paying out.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
September 01, 2017, 11:15:17 PM
#67
But you would have to develop a strong set of terms and conditions that says if somebody hasn't logged in or at least touch their account and X number of days that the account is up for grabs. A lot of legal stuff, a lot of possibility to lose money, but somebody's got to dive in there and do it.
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 281
August 30, 2017, 02:31:14 PM
#66
Bitcoin core could fork once again into a proof of stake coin. I suppose it would allow for another massive airdrop to bitcoin core holders. Ultimately the market will decide which version (or versions) succeeds.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
August 30, 2017, 01:19:58 PM
#65
Isn't lightening a form of proof of stake?

No. Not even close Wink Lightning is an off-chain transaction method. The only thing both have in common is that LN, on its own, doesn't require much additional electricity use. But LN needs a blockchain to work, and in the case of Bitcoin, a proof-of-work blockchain.

Isn't PoS completely insecure due to the nothing at stake problem?
Or is there any solution to this problem?

That's what was discussed here in the earlier postings. There are disagreeing views: Myself I think there are "solutions", or that the vulnerability is merely theoretical (in my opinion, above all, the "bribing attacker" scenario and also "multi-chain forging" is based on unrealistic conditions). There are others that think that the "bribing attacker" are fatal to PoS systems, or that special conditions (e.g. an "oligarchy" of cooperating whales) are needed for PoS systems to work.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 11
August 29, 2017, 03:44:01 AM
#64
Isn't PoS completely insecure due to the nothing at stake problem?

Or is there any solution to this problem?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
August 27, 2017, 02:59:28 PM
#63
That is too deep of a coding change and I don't even think that can be pulled off as a fork. If you were really interested in creating this type of system then what you could do is create your own website, back it with a huge chunk of change add offer the service of a savings account for Bitcoin.

Coding is not the problem, it's difficult and time consuming, sure, but it can be done.

The issue is of course the incumbent culture and the group of developers of Bitcoin will not easily agree to even a hint of PoS. Hell it took over a year and multiple forks, and still not agree to a simple block size increase. Proof of Stake in Bitcoin? not until the heat death of the universe.
full member
Activity: 347
Merit: 109
August 27, 2017, 02:57:06 PM
#62
Isn't lightening a form of proof of stake?
sr. member
Activity: 2030
Merit: 356
August 27, 2017, 04:42:18 AM
#61
That is too deep of a coding change and I don't even think that can be pulled off as a fork. If you were really interested in creating this type of system then what you could do is create your own website, back it with a huge chunk of change add offer the service of a savings account for Bitcoin.
full member
Activity: 630
Merit: 104
August 25, 2017, 03:30:34 PM
#60
i dont believe that btc will move to Proof of stake. Hard to believe.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
August 25, 2017, 02:10:02 PM
#59
Interesting idea about limiting chain reorganizations. I wonder how that would work. New nodes can't really know how many blocks are there and how much the reorganization is happening, then again I am not sure how you would make sure that blocks are created periodically.

That is not a big problem - just look at the Nxt code how it's done. Chain reorganizations occur when there are two parallel chains, you are on "chain A" and suddenly your client detects a "chain B" with a higher "score" (in many PoS currencies that value is called "chain trust"). If the client comes into this situation, he simply must look if the last block that have both chains in common is more than e.g. 720 blocks "away" in the past. If yes, then it won't reorganize. The client will stay on the fork.

Now that could be undesirable, because a fork that normally would get "orphaned" could persist a long time because clients won't reorg. That is also why some dub the "reorg prohibition" a "dirty hack". But the answer to that is that such long forks normally only occur when someone is trying to attack. That's why "Economic Clustering" is used: This feature allows you to look fast if you are on the same chain than other nodes, for example, the exchange you use, or your friends. If nobody uses your fork, you cannot use your money on it. You would then abandon the fork on your own and start syncing the blockchain again.

Quote
It seems to me that if you want to be secure in PoS your node needs to be online all the time, you can't miss something, otherwise you are in trouble.

You are not necessarily in trouble, but you are vulnerable in this situation if you don't look on which other chain the other known nodes (exchanges, service providers) are. That is the main weakness of PoS. The well known blog post from Vitalik Buterin I already linked above explains it well.

Quote
In PoS you can create the whole 100 year history in just one second and two disagreeing blockchains would seem equally valid for a new node.


You would need a pretty big supercomputer to create a "100 year history in one second", but I get your point.

The "equally valid" does only hold true if both blockchains have exactly the same "score" which is very unlikely. Like in PoW, the "longest chain" wins - but in PoS, an attacker can re-create a "longest chain" with the well-known nothing-at-stake attacks, however, as already said, that's not trivial because he must obey the blockchain rules (he cannot create "stake" out of thin air, as long as he doesn't re-create the genesis block).

Quote
PoS seems to me like a very risky idea, it should definitely be more tested before it would be implemented in the biggest cryptocurrency.

Here I agree, as I already said. There is more research needed before implementing it in Bitcoin. I would also first implement a hybrid PoW/PoS version.

Quote
I didn't really refer to the ease of starting to use cryptocurrency, everything should be as easy to start to use as it can be. I was talking about the ease of getting power in the network. There shouldn't be any restrictions on your power in the network based on your time of adoption.

With the "reorg-prohibition" earlier described, "young" nodes have the same power than "old" nodes with the same stake.
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