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Topic: Proof of stake mining of bicoin - page 5. (Read 25676 times)

hero member
Activity: 763
Merit: 500
December 30, 2014, 09:44:56 AM
Instead of
Code:
Dollars -> Mining rig -> Cryptocoins
PoS offers
Code:
Dollars -> Cryptocoins
Obviously this part is too technical to some people here though it tells a simple truth.

Logic flow:
Dollars -> aerospace engineering research Mining rig -> intergalactic travel
therefor dollars -> intergalactic travel
who needs rocket scientists Mining rig, right?  Roll Eyes

fify.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 30, 2014, 09:26:42 AM
i was wandering in the future can bitcoin switch to proof of stake?

This is an obvious troll thread that belongs in alt coins. Bitcoin has never considered any other design. Please move this thread.

This is like saying Kodak was never considered to move to digital cameras. If bitcoin don't evolve it will get outdated.

I can't believe how bitcoiners blame so hard people not willing to evolve and move to bitcoin, but at the same time they hate so much other innovations that could provide better service.

True.

From what I hear though, there has been quite a bit of discussion about
Proof of Stake among the core developers...its not like they are ignoring
the issue...Its just that so far, they don't see that it will make Bitcoin
more secure.

legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1001
December 30, 2014, 09:20:57 AM
i was wandering in the future can bitcoin switch to proof of stake?

This is an obvious troll thread that belongs in alt coins. Bitcoin has never considered any other design. Please move this thread.

This is like saying Kodak was never considered to move to digital cameras. If bitcoin don't evolve it will get outdated.

I can't believe how bitcoiners blame so hard people not willing to evolve and move to bitcoin, but at the same time they hate so much other innovations that could provide better service.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 30, 2014, 09:12:48 AM
Bitcoin has never considered any other design.

If this was true then it would mean that Bitcoin is centralized. Whom do you refer to by calling them "Bitcoin"?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 30, 2014, 09:10:16 AM
Logic flow:
Dollars -> aerospace engineering research -> intergalactic travel
therefor dollars -> intergalactic travel
who needs rocket scientists, right?  Roll Eyes

I like your sense of humor. Your claim about the logic flaw is logically flawed. But mistyping "o" instead of "a" you made it double-twisted.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 30, 2014, 08:20:41 AM
i was wandering in the future can bitcoin switch to proof of stake?

This is an obvious troll thread that belongs in alt coins. Bitcoin has never considered any other design. Please move this thread.

Who is this bitcoin you speak of and when can we get an official statement?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 30, 2014, 08:18:12 AM
i was wandering in the future can bitcoin switch to proof of stake?

This is an obvious troll thread that belongs in alt coins. Bitcoin has never considered any other design. Please move this thread.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
December 30, 2014, 08:07:20 AM
Bitcoin is very hard to upgrade but you can hold bitcoin on a DPOS (delegated proof of stake) chain on BitShares as bitBTC and earn interest.  So individuals can choose to upgrade but the network itself can't.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 30, 2014, 08:02:10 AM
Instead of
Code:
Dollars -> Mining rig -> Cryptocoins
PoS offers
Code:
Dollars -> Cryptocoins

Obviously this part is too technical to some people here though it tells a simple truth.
Logic flow:
Dollars -> aerospace engineering research -> intergalactic travel
therefor dollars -> intergalactic travel
who needs rocket scientists, right?  Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 763
Merit: 500
December 30, 2014, 07:52:38 AM
Instead of
Code:
Dollars -> Mining rig -> Cryptocoins
PoS offers
Code:
Dollars -> Cryptocoins

Obviously this part is too technical to some people here though it tells a simple truth.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
December 30, 2014, 07:41:15 AM
Centralization remains an issue

That's why PoW provides a 51% mechanism.
It works both ways, any 51% attack can be 51% attacked.

Don't make me laugh.  You think you can 51% the government?  lol

That's why we have an anarchy of competing governments.
Putting governments' spending onto blockchain would allow for greater transparency and accountability.
BTC blockchain might become the DNA of humanity, as a single healthy organism, that would evolve beyond the confines of a single planet.

Looks like you prefer to joke instead of defending your point of view. Ok, never mind.

I have rehashed most of my arguments up thread. Provided that this isn't the first time there is a discussion on the topic, there isn't much to add. I'm glad that debates have continued, though. Debates is what keeps us alive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpMPu5p_QXU

By the way, you might notice some parallels in the video above and the movie I referred to earlier, so my concerns are not completely unfounded. PoW and PoS may and should co-exist and can even be friends Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 30, 2014, 06:46:57 AM
If it does not cost anything to produce a PoS coin then it does not cost anything to attack the network. As a result any PoS coin can be attacked for free

Yet another with no idea how it works. If it can be attacked for free how are those coins surviving? Take a look at Coinmarketcap, the top list is dominated by non-PoW coins. Surely, if its that easy they would've been attacked by now - the incentive is there.

well, sort of.  doge, lite coin, and bitcoin are still on top.  you can't even count stellar and ripple as they aren't decentralized.  paycoin is new, but partially poW anyway.  

As far as attacking, yes you do need some stake at least initially to attack a poS coin, so it's not truly free.  probably you would need something on the order of a 1% stake.  But on the other hand, it doesn't necessarily mean poS will work at larger scales; many have serious concerns about the security model.  You are right that the concerns are theoretical as of now.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
December 30, 2014, 05:05:18 AM
If it does not cost anything to produce a PoS coin then it does not cost anything to attack the network. As a result any PoS coin can be attacked for free

Yet another with no idea how it works. If it can be attacked for free how are those coins surviving? Take a look at Coinmarketcap, the top list is dominated by non-PoW coins. Surely, if its that easy they would've been attacked by now - the incentive is there.
hero member
Activity: 502
Merit: 500
December 30, 2014, 03:41:36 AM
Improvements in PoW come in a form of advancements in energy-efficient computation

You mean improve on how to waste energy more efficiently?

Energy cannot be wasted, just transformed.
Do you play computer games, do you watch tv, engage in sports maybe?

Do you realize how much energy humanity 'wastes' by simply existing?
Yeah, the whole Universe is just an utter waste of energy, this needs to stop, teh Big Crunch will save us Cheesy

I wonder how much energy has been wasted in this circlejerk of a thread.

If you really want to see energy waste, go check out reddit.com/r/bitcoin.

It is one huge circle jerk, and r/buttcoin makes fun of them (us)
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 30, 2014, 03:35:45 AM

Well sort of.  A coin's value is determined by supply and demand, not the mining costs; it is the mining costs that are determined by the value of the new coins being issued..

PoS coins like NXT have essentially no mining (minting) costs because they issue no new coins.

"Money's value is decided by supply and demand", this statement comes from legacy financial book, and they forgot to mention the most important prerequisite of this statement: You must be monopole in making such money and force it upon its users. For commodity money like gold/silver, its value typically tied to production cost because of free flow of capitals

I can create a PoS coin and hold majority of the coins or even all of them and hope others to use it, thus give it demand and increase its value. However in open source world the competition is almost instant, if it is enough profitable, some others will also do this by using similar code, and possibly with a even higher marketing effort, eventually the demand will be spread in many different coins thus each coin's value becomes diluted

The problem in the above PoS clone scenario is inflation: If there are so many different clones out there, then the aggregate inflation will destroy each coins value and people will just leave. Many people come to cryptocurrency world seeking for protection from inflation, they will evaluate the situation and eventually only select one currency with limited supply to achieve that goal. From this point of view, any clone (including PoW coin clone) will only get minimal capital inflow
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1042
White Male Libertarian Bro
December 30, 2014, 03:03:21 AM
Centralization remains an issue

That's why PoW provides a 51% mechanism.
It works both ways, any 51% attack can be 51% attacked.

Don't make me laugh.  You think you can 51% the government?  lol
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 30, 2014, 02:53:35 AM
If it does not cost anything to produce a PoS coin then it does not cost anything to attack the network. As a result any PoS coin can be attacked for free

Your claim perfectly explains why I've seen several successfully attacked PoW coins and none PoS ones. /sarcasm
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 30, 2014, 02:50:46 AM
No, I'm just saying that trying to furk bicoin might result in bi-furk-action.
So, bi careful and don't furk it up! Cheesy

Looks like you prefer to joke instead of defending your point of view. Ok, never mind.
hero member
Activity: 699
Merit: 501
Coinpanion.io - Copy Successful Crypto Traders
December 30, 2014, 02:38:21 AM
The amount of CPU power necessary to generate a PoS block is nominal at most. A single very old computer would be able to handle creating every single block of a PoS coin.

If it does not cost anything to produce a PoS coin then it does not cost anything to attack the network. As a result any PoS coin can be attacked for free

Blah blah blah, do it!

In the end the truth is bitcoin is consuming 10% of its market cap each year (500 million $) to mantain a decentralized (not so decentralized lately) ledger.
10% a year today,  6 % in 2016, 5% in 2017, 3% in 2019, and 0.5% in 2026.

you can just buy all the NXT you can for the current extra cheap price, sit on them and enjoy all the benefits of a natural steady deflation which increases your purchasing power. Cool
That something I like about Nxt. Bitcoin is Disinflationary, while nxt has no inflation besides the ICO. This may be its undoing though because distribution wasn't the best initially. The nxt currency isn't deflationary in of itself .... are there any true deflationary currencies in existence? (I am not talking about deflationary in reference to minting vs adoption)

The 10% will not decrease, as shown by the last halving. If it decreased to 0.5% in 2026, then it will only cost 0.5% to attack the Bitcoin network, which is laughable as security.

I think you can actually try an attack spending 2 or 3% of the bitcoin market cap.  
When inflation drop to 0.5%, 0.1% of the bitcoin market cap will do the job, maybe even less then that if the mining has centralized further.
By then, not the government, not a terrorist organization, not an asteroid but speculation will have destroyed it.
And for those who think transaction fees will be enough to pay for the security i want to ask them how useful is bitcoin if you must spend 2 or 3 $ to do a transaction.
The bell shaped curve of yearly transaction revenues from fees, has a point of maximum which is not proportional to the market cap of the coin, if you raise fee beyond that point revenues will drop and the same will happen if you set minimum fee too low, i don't know how much total revenues from fees could be at best, but i'm sure it will not be enough and it is a very stupid idea imposing 100% of the costs on those who make transactions and will porbably result in a disaster.
Cost of security in a POW must be proportional to market cap, and must be paid by stakeholders via inflation like it's happening today.
That's why bitcoin economic model is actually working, neverending inflation is necessary for POW to continue working properly.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 29, 2014, 07:21:07 PM
yes, that is the so called nothing-at-stake issue.

And now that I think about more, I don't even
think security deposits solve the issue.
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