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Topic: Proof of stake mining of bicoin - page 7. (Read 25676 times)

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 29, 2014, 10:48:56 AM
Like it or not, some variation of PoS is going to dominate. The general opinion is slowly being aware that the money given over to the electricity and the hardware companies is better off being utilized to develop the coin itself.

No one is forced to give any money to anyone, people exercise their own choices.
Competition requires energy, no-competition doesn't.

So which of the competition is better suited - the one which is spending resources to keep the network running, or the other which is using the same resources in improving itself?

Again, confusing security model with distribution model.

Security costs depend on distribution rewards (issuance of new coins),
not whether the coin uses PoS or PoW.



You can buy miners and spend electricity and earn coins.
You can go to an exchange, spend money and buy coins.

Not really sure your point.  Mine is that cryptos like NXT
can claim lower security cost because they aren't issuing
new currency.  Very simple.

legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
December 29, 2014, 10:47:52 AM
Like it or not, some variation of PoS is going to dominate. The general opinion is slowly being aware that the money given over to the electricity and the hardware companies is better off being utilized to develop the coin itself.

No one is forced to give any money to anyone, people exercise their own choices.
Competition requires energy, no-competition doesn't.

So which of the competition is better suited - the one which is spending resources to keep the network running, or the other which is using the same resources in improving itself?

Again, confusing security model with distribution model.

Security costs depend on distribution rewards (issuance of new coins),
not whether the coin uses PoS or PoW.



You can buy miners and spend electricity and earn coins.
You can go to an exchange, spend money and buy coins.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 29, 2014, 10:45:19 AM
Like it or not, some variation of PoS is going to dominate. The general opinion is slowly being aware that the money given over to the electricity and the hardware companies is better off being utilized to develop the coin itself.

No one is forced to give any money to anyone, people exercise their own choices.
Competition requires energy, no-competition doesn't.

So which of the competition is better suited - the one which is spending resources to keep the network running, or the other which is using the same resources in improving itself?

Again, confusing security model with distribution model.

Security costs depend on distribution rewards (issuance of new coins),
not whether the coin uses PoS or PoW.

legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 29, 2014, 10:39:29 AM
So you equate PoS cryptocoins to dollars...

No, I could use BTC instead of USD.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
December 29, 2014, 10:38:58 AM
Like it or not, some variation of PoS is going to dominate. The general opinion is slowly being aware that the money given over to the electricity and the hardware companies is better off being utilized to develop the coin itself.

No one is forced to give any money to anyone, people exercise their own choices.
Competition requires energy, no-competition doesn't.

So which of the competition is better suited - the one which is spending resources to keep the network running, or the other which is using the same resources in improving itself?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
December 29, 2014, 10:36:44 AM
Like it or not, some variation of PoS is going to dominate. The general opinion is slowly being aware that the money given over to the electricity and the hardware companies is better off being utilized to develop the coin itself.

No one is forced to give any money to anyone, people exercise their own choices.
Competition requires energy, no-competition doesn't.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 29, 2014, 10:36:16 AM
Like it or not, some variation of PoS is going to dominate. The general opinion is slowly being aware that the money given over to the electricity and the hardware companies is better off being utilized to develop the coin itself.

uh, pretty sure we've been debating that for 14 pages...but feel free to stroll in and give your word as gospel.  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
December 29, 2014, 10:27:38 AM
Like it or not, some variation of PoS is going to dominate. The general opinion is slowly being aware that the money given over to the electricity and the hardware companies is better off being utilized to develop the coin itself.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
December 29, 2014, 10:23:41 AM
Is it some form of hidden g@y propaganda? I'm straight, so I'm out Cheesy

Have you just attempted to insult ~10% of BTT users?

Of course not, everyone has a right to choose what they prefer, bicoin is cool, let's furk it! Cheesy

PoS security mechanism is that of a private enterprise.

PoS = PoW with one level of indirection removed.

Instead of
Code:
Dollars -> Mining rig -> Cryptocoins
PoS offers
Code:
Dollars -> Cryptocoins

Comparison with a private enterprise is incorrect because you compare only few aspects ignoring the others.

I could say that Bitcoin = FED because miners print money if I followed your tactics.

So you equate PoS cryptocoins to dollars, which is correct as both have stakeholders at the center of their security model, while recognizing that PoW makes a difference, which I fully agree with.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 29, 2014, 10:11:01 AM
PoS security mechanism is that of a private enterprise.

PoS = PoW with one level of indirection removed.

Instead of
Code:
Dollars -> Mining rig -> Cryptocoins
PoS offers
Code:
Dollars -> Cryptocoins


Yes, but with PoW, you need to keep consuming
an external resource, so the two aren't exactly
comparable.  I'm not going to debate the implications
or pros and cons, as its all been said before, just
pointing that out.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 29, 2014, 09:47:45 AM
Is it some form of hidden g@y propaganda? I'm straight, so I'm out Cheesy

Have you just attempted to insult ~10% of BTT users?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
December 29, 2014, 09:36:04 AM
PoS security mechanism is that of a private enterprise.

PoS = PoW with one level of indirection removed.

Instead of
Code:
Dollars -> Mining rig -> Cryptocoins
PoS offers
Code:
Dollars -> Cryptocoins

Comparison with a private enterprise is incorrect because you compare only few aspects ignoring the others.

I could say that Bitcoin = FED because miners print money if I followed your tactics.

Dollars, hmm... never heard of them, you mean $nakes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

By the way, we are talking about forking "bicoin" here.
Is it some form of hidden g@y propaganda? I'm straight, so I'm out Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 29, 2014, 09:25:23 AM
PoS security mechanism is that of a private enterprise.

PoS = PoW with one level of indirection removed.

Instead of
Code:
Dollars -> Mining rig -> Cryptocoins
PoS offers
Code:
Dollars -> Cryptocoins

Comparison with a private enterprise is incorrect because you compare only few aspects ignoring the others.

I could say that Bitcoin = FED because miners print money if I followed your tactics.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 29, 2014, 09:15:31 AM
First you claim market caps denote the value of a cryptocurrency. I refute that point by explaining that all cryptocurrencies markets without exception are unregulated and therefore unreliable. I also demonstrate that with the paintings analogy. That threw you for a loop so you ignored the analogy and started talking about the art market. That's called a red herring by the way. Then you said
Quote
But I this is getting away from your proposition of your paintings with nothing to offer = POS platforms that support the development of real projects  Grin

which is simply hyperbole. I can appreciate that.

But then you have to go and defend your champion CFB. You consistently and completely ignore my rebuttals and instead use fallacies. Now you accuse me of social engineering.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Comments about market cap was your starting point, not mine. My first post was that you were making a false comparison > Your paintings = POS. (I'll wait while you go back a read my post, it starts "bwaaaahahahahaha... "   Grin)

Your paintings = POS is a strawman as the two are definitely not equivalent (unless paintings does have an asset exchange?  Wink ) and you successfully attacked your false representation. Rather than attack the reality of POS (see the bit about Jinn and value not being depending on regulation or acceptance from authority). Far from ignoring your point, I addressed it directly. That was the starting point.


You put the paintings analogy in the middle of our conversation, not at the start. Your version of events doesn't correspond to our conversation and that makes me think you aren't interested in honest discourse, only trying to 'win'.


CfB doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him, he already does a sterling job of that himself  Grin This thread is a good example  Cheesy

But excuse me for the rest of today, I have to go comb my couch.
Mea Culpa, it was CFB that brought up the market cap, but it was you that responded to my counterpoint. I presume it was also your argument as you were defending it. But excuse me for the evening. I must attend my party guests.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
December 29, 2014, 09:14:42 AM
My paintings have a price of 100 billion each. I have 500 of them. My paintings have a market cap of 50 trillion.

It is if the market values it so. Now I don't know you personally and you may very well be a great painter, but its more likely they will be going for dime a dozen in which case your paintings will have a market cap of $4.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
December 29, 2014, 09:11:47 AM

Protection against 51% attacks is a concern.

51% mechanism is what allows to challenge the status quo, thus enabling competition for power.
Just sitting on your money in PoW does't give you control over the system, just engaging in the competition for control doesn't bring you money as mining is normally a break-even game. Thus money and control become orthogonal, which results in a dynamic system without asymptotes. In PoS you get both in a nice single package, which saturates fairly quickly.

Hybrid systems are more tricky beasts, thus they need to be studied closely. I'm concerned that saturation in PoS aspect of the hybrid will at some point begin to negatively influence the competition on PoW side.

51% PoW mechanism is what allows malicious agents to challenge the legitimate miners, thus overpowering them via a hashpower coup d'etat.

Do you really think that the legitimate miners in Bitcoin can prevent a government from forcing their rules on the Bitcoin network?  Mind you, the NSA had a $10.7 Billion USD budget in 2013.  The only way to prevent such actions from external actors is via PoS.

You're inserting judgement into equation.
PoW rules are neutral - run the algorithm faster and you win. Does that make you malicious?
It is like saying, countries can be attacked by other countries, thus countries are bad. Planets can be attacked by aliens - planets are wrong. Universes can collapse in a Big Crunch - universes are evil.

PoW 51% mechanism is what sets things in motion, PoS saturates towards centralization of power and stays there.

For those unaware, there have been some serious
hybrid PoW/PoS proposals for Bitcoin, which you can find here:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake

If you are interested in using PoW as a distribution mechanism and PoS as a security mechanism, NXT's monetary system offers such a solution.

PoS security mechanism is that of a private enterprise. It works well when there are other enterprises to run to. Network effects work great with money, thus global money system is better served with PoW as it can stay robust all by itself by allowing competition for both money and control within the system.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
December 29, 2014, 09:10:31 AM
If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

So why don't you go ahead and mine it? There are several valuable PoS coins, more valuable than PoW coins in fact if you discount Bitcoin.

You are stuck with common misunderstanding that mining increases the Bitcoin value. It goes the other way, difficulty, or rather the energy spent (difficulty also depends on the generation of hardware) increases or decrease with what the market speculates the value of the coin is. The value certainly doesn't depend upon the mining cost.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
December 29, 2014, 09:09:48 AM
First you claim market caps denote the value of a cryptocurrency. I refute that point by explaining that all cryptocurrencies markets without exception are unregulated and therefore unreliable. I also demonstrate that with the paintings analogy. That threw you for a loop so you ignored the analogy and started talking about the art market. That's called a red herring by the way. Then you said
Quote
But I this is getting away from your proposition of your paintings with nothing to offer = POS platforms that support the development of real projects  Grin

which is simply hyperbole. I can appreciate that.

But then you have to go and defend your champion CFB. You consistently and completely ignore my rebuttals and instead use fallacies. Now you accuse me of social engineering.

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Comments about market cap was your starting point, not mine. My first post was that you were making a false comparison > Your paintings = POS. (I'll wait while you go back a read my post, it starts "bwaaaahahahahaha... "   Grin)

Your paintings = POS is a strawman as the two are definitely not equivalent (unless paintings does have an asset exchange?  Wink ) and you successfully attacked your false representation. Rather than attack the reality of POS (see the bit about Jinn and value not being depending on regulation or acceptance from authority). Far from ignoring your point, I addressed it directly. That was the starting point.


You put the paintings analogy in the middle of our conversation, not at the start. Your version of events doesn't correspond to our conversation and that makes me think you aren't interested in honest discourse, only trying to 'win'.


CfB doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him, he already does a sterling job of that himself  Grin This thread is a good example  Cheesy

But excuse me for the rest of today, I have to go comb my couch.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 29, 2014, 08:25:31 AM
Then http://coinmarketcap.com/ gives us incorrect information... or you are just wrong.
My paintings have a price of 100 billion each. I have 500 of them. My paintings have a market cap of 50 trillion.

I see that integrity is not the strongest of your qualities...


You don't know what a strawman is. Let's just end this. You win. I will ignore you also.
Your. Trolling. Is. Just. Too. Powerful... aaaarrgghhhh!!!!

Truth hurts?


  Cheesy
What would you know of truth?

Evidence suggests it is true you try to play to the crowd when your points get rebutted. Maybe you are losing your ability to tell people what to think?
First you claim market caps denote the value of a cryptocurrency. I refute that point by explaining that all cryptocurrencies markets without exception are unregulated and therefore unreliable. I also demonstrate that with the paintings analogy. That threw you for a loop so you ignored the analogy and started talking about the art market. That's called a red herring by the way. Then you said
Quote
But I this is getting away from your proposition of your paintings with nothing to offer = POS platforms that support the development of real projects  Grin

which is simply hyperbole. I can appreciate that.

But then you have to go and defend your champion CFB. You consistently and completely ignore my rebuttals and instead use fallacies. Now you accuse me of social engineering.

Pot. Kettle. Black.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
December 29, 2014, 07:40:59 AM
Then http://coinmarketcap.com/ gives us incorrect information... or you are just wrong.
My paintings have a price of 100 billion each. I have 500 of them. My paintings have a market cap of 50 trillion.

I see that integrity is not the strongest of your qualities...


You don't know what a strawman is. Let's just end this. You win. I will ignore you also.
Your. Trolling. Is. Just. Too. Powerful... aaaarrgghhhh!!!!

Truth hurts?


  Cheesy
What would you know of truth?

Evidence suggests it is true you try to play to the crowd when your points get rebutted. Maybe you are losing your ability to tell people what to think?
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