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Topic: Pros and Cons to Anon coins, Including Darkcoin / Cloakcoin, lets discuss them. - page 6. (Read 8798 times)

hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
You're right that it's quite possible to DDOS any coin's nodes like this.

However it'll take up massively more resources to DDOS XC nodes with any noticeable severity, since every single node is a "masternode". The number of nodes an attacker would need to control is proportionally huge.

Disagree. Not every XC user will run their wallet 24/7 - how many nodes are there right now? There are 800+ DRK masternodes running 24/7 atm.

Even though some people are running DRK masternodes in their home computers behind adsl or cable connections, most of them are still on dedicated servers or clouds that have gigabit connections. I would imagine it is completely opposite in XC's case. It doesn't take much to ddos someones laptop running on dsl or 3g phone.

Obviously this is not easily quantifiable, but the bolded part is just not true imo.
full member
Activity: 173
Merit: 182
Refreshing to read opinions of someone who actually has a clue instead of crypto noobs hyping their vapor buzzwords. I consider myself to be crypto noob as well, however:

What if the Darkcoin wallet was monitoring the state of the network, and if the running masternode count fell for example 50% in a short period of time, it would stop denominating funds (denomination is the anonymization process which runs in the background). This wouldn't affect people sending or receiving coins because they already have them denominated/anonymized. It would only prevent people from re-sending received funds during this ddos period.

Every other coin has to use nodes as well, and they can be ddos attacked which can halt the network for the duration of the attack. It's not only Darkcoin that is susceptible to ddos.

The "monitoring the state of the network" thing is then a huge security risk AND a massive drain. This means that every single one of the (potentially tens or hundreds of thousands) have to reach out every single one of the (potentially several hundred) masternodes. This is a massive traffic burden, but it also means that a bad actor can setup (or compromise) just a single masternode in order to identify the IP address of every single node.

You are right that every coin has to use nodes, but bear in mind that 50% of nodes becoming unavailable in most cryptocurrencies isn't a showstopper. The rest will continue to operate and maintain consensus, and when those 50% come back online they'll just catch up to the network state.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
Hi ,
arranged it for OP  if you wanna ad :

XCurrency

pros:


- Decentralised trustless Privacy in several layers, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8119256
- known and reputable dev and Team, http://xc-official.com/the-xc-team/
- helpfull community spirit with dev taking the lead , btw XC is far ahead of reviewed coin:
   https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8092391
- Encrypted messaging XChat https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8119953


cons: ( well i don't agree with those but those are some usual mentioned)


- premine of 125k ( with that public dev i think its good)
- ANN on Bitcointalk is also self moderated (after unmoderated thread turned into a fud fest, so requested by community)

thank you
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
To commodify ethicality is to ethicise the market
Glad to hear that Darkcoin has built-in protection for this attack vector, it's certainly a valid concern.

It doesn't have that, it was just something I was suggesting in DRK thread earlier and asking what people's thoughts about it are. But if the idea is feasible and provides additional security, the implementation probably should be pretty straightforward.


XC does also, in that every single wallet is a node.  Thus, there's no central point that can be targeted for a ddos.

It's the same thing. XC node that participates in anonymization requires an open incoming TCP port, and the attacker can ddos those nodes just as well as drk masternodes.


In addition, transactions are multisig so they require several parties to sign before they are processed.  If a bad node alters a transaction to steal funds, or refuses to sign, the transaction won't be processed, so you can't lose funds.  Also, since there are redundant connections between nodes that provide multiple pathways for funds, if a node fails to sign a transaction there are others ready to take its place.  Pretty cool stuff, really.

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

You're right that it's quite possible to DDOS any coin's nodes like this.

However it'll take up massively more resources to DDOS XC nodes with any noticeable severity, since every single node is a "masternode". The number of nodes an attacker would need to control is proportionally huge.

full member
Activity: 173
Merit: 182
Every coin says this. Nothing against xc but do coins not check if others have currently working anon?

Fair point. Maybe I haven't checked sufficiently. Who else has it?

Let me know and I might be able to qualify what I mean by "working" and "anonymity". ;-)

All of the CryptoNote coins do (Monero, Boolberry, Bytecoin (BCN) etc.) They have working anonymity from their launch. If you take Bytecoin's claim at face value (it's pretty clear it's bullshit) they have been around for 2 years. Even knowing that it's likely a false claim meant to cover up their 82% premine, you still come face-to-face with an indisputable fact: Bytecoin's first commit to github was on 15 November 2013, and already then the code worked and provided cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions. Monero, too, was launched (fairly) on 18 April 2014, before XC even came into existence.

As much as I think Bytecoin is a fail because of their premine, they are the ONLY ones that can lay claim to having the FIRST "working anonymity". Monero and the all the other CryptoNote coins can lay claim to being the ONLY cryptocurrencies that currently have a 100% working solution to cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions.

If you don't believe me, pick any transaction on the Monero blockchain (eg. http://monerochain.info/tx/49ee290a4e65bc554382089d778c1ac26b20a5b6044d3fa4b1767780e2617546) and try figure out the address of the person that sent the coins, the address of the person they were sending to, and they amount. I'll gladly even setup two wallets and transfer between them and give you the transaction ID to give it a try. Oh and these transactions are instantaneous, no waiting for a mixing hop to finish or anything.
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
Glad to hear that Darkcoin has built-in protection for this attack vector, it's certainly a valid concern.

It doesn't have that, it was just something I was suggesting in DRK thread earlier and asking what people's thoughts about it are. But if the idea is feasible and provides additional security, the implementation probably should be pretty straightforward.


XC does also, in that every single wallet is a node.  Thus, there's no central point that can be targeted for a ddos.

It's the same thing. XC node that participates in anonymization requires an open incoming TCP port, and the attacker can ddos those nodes just as well as drk masternodes.


In addition, transactions are multisig so they require several parties to sign before they are processed.  If a bad node alters a transaction to steal funds, or refuses to sign, the transaction won't be processed, so you can't lose funds.  Also, since there are redundant connections between nodes that provide multiple pathways for funds, if a node fails to sign a transaction there are others ready to take its place.  Pretty cool stuff, really.

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.
member
Activity: 105
Merit: 10
4. and 5. (no clue how this relates to 5) - collusion on its own is irrelevant. Of course it will be ineffectual. It would always be coupled with the compromise or the DDoSing of additional "masternodes". In such an event, the number of available masternodes is massively reduced, which means the the little Google spreadsheet is incorrect. Many hosts will null-route a dedicated server (even more so a VPS) if it is experiencing a DDoS. Other attacks such as a DDoS group constantly requesting a stream of blocks from a masternode would lead to its traffic exceeding normal use and massive traffic bills. Similarly, a DDoS group could broadcast thousands of bad blocks a second to a masternode, leading to it chewing through CPU cycles doing very heavy X11 verifications, ultimately leading to it becoming inaccessible or being killed by the oomkiller. Those are just off the top of my head, of course, and the attack stands regardless of whether these specific scenarios can be mitigated against.

Refreshing to read opinions of someone who actually has a clue instead of crypto noobs hyping their vapor buzzwords. I consider myself to be crypto noob as well, however:

What if the Darkcoin wallet was monitoring the state of the network, and if the running masternode count fell for example 50% in a short period of time, it would stop denominating funds (denomination is the anonymization process which runs in the background). This wouldn't affect people sending or receiving coins because they already have them denominated/anonymized. It would only prevent people from re-sending received funds during this ddos period.

Every other coin has to use nodes as well, and they can be ddos attacked which can halt the network for the duration of the attack. It's not only Darkcoin that is susceptible to ddos.

Glad to hear that Darkcoin has built-in protection for this attack vector, it's certainly a valid concern.

XC does also, in that every single wallet is a node.  Thus, there's no central point that can be targeted for a ddos.  

In addition, transactions are multisig so they require several parties to sign before they are processed.  If a bad node alters a transaction to steal funds, or refuses to sign, the transaction won't be processed, so you can't lose funds.  Also, since there are redundant connections between nodes that provide multiple pathways for funds, if a node fails to sign a transaction there are others ready to take its place.  This means that if there was a ddos attack, even though it's not really possible due to the completely decentralized nature of XC, you'd still be able to send and receive funds.  Pretty cool stuff, really.

legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
To commodify ethicality is to ethicise the market


- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.


Every coin says this. Nothing against xc but do coins not check if others have currently working anon?

Fair point. Maybe I haven't checked sufficiently. Who else has it?

Let me know and I might be able to qualify what I mean by "working" and "anonymity". ;-)



hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Stopped reading right there.

Illodin, you shouldn't need to read about XC, you've been in our thread plenty already.  Grin

lol got me.  Grin
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
4. and 5. (no clue how this relates to 5) - collusion on its own is irrelevant. Of course it will be ineffectual. It would always be coupled with the compromise or the DDoSing of additional "masternodes". In such an event, the number of available masternodes is massively reduced, which means the the little Google spreadsheet is incorrect. Many hosts will null-route a dedicated server (even more so a VPS) if it is experiencing a DDoS. Other attacks such as a DDoS group constantly requesting a stream of blocks from a masternode would lead to its traffic exceeding normal use and massive traffic bills. Similarly, a DDoS group could broadcast thousands of bad blocks a second to a masternode, leading to it chewing through CPU cycles doing very heavy X11 verifications, ultimately leading to it becoming inaccessible or being killed by the oomkiller. Those are just off the top of my head, of course, and the attack stands regardless of whether these specific scenarios can be mitigated against.

Refreshing to read opinions of someone who actually has a clue instead of crypto noobs hyping their vapor buzzwords. I consider myself to be crypto noob as well, however:

What if the Darkcoin wallet was monitoring the state of the network, and if the running masternode count fell for example 50% in a short period of time, it would stop denominating funds (denomination is the anonymization process which runs in the background). This wouldn't affect people sending or receiving coins because they already have them denominated/anonymized. It would only prevent people from re-sending received funds during this ddos period.

Every other coin has to use nodes as well, and they can be ddos attacked which can halt the network for the duration of the attack. It's not only Darkcoin that is susceptible to ddos.
member
Activity: 105
Merit: 10
If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Stopped reading right there.

Illodin, you shouldn't need to read about XC, you've been in our thread plenty already.  Grin

hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Stopped reading right there.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000


2 additional pro for XCurrency that are not anon related since Synechist covered that:

- known and reputable dev and Team, http://xc-official.com/the-xc-team/

- helpfull community spirit with dev taking the lead , btw XC is far ahead of reviewed coin:
   https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8092391

member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10


- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.


Every coin says this. Nothing against xc but do coins not check if others have currently working anon?
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
To commodify ethicality is to ethicise the market
Why don't you include Monero?

Most likely due to the fact that the DRK thread has been filling up with CLOAK talk.

Regarding DRK, looks like they are getting closer to releasing RC4 with yesterday's release.

I am open to listing other coins, if someone can give me pros and cons with sources like in post #1.

Sure.

hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 507
Freedom to choose
Why don't you include Monero?

Most likely due to the fact that the DRK thread has been filling up with CLOAK talk.

Regarding DRK, looks like they are getting closer to releasing RC4 with yesterday's release.

I am open to listing other coins, if someone can give me pros and cons with sources like in post #1.

And with these x11 and x13 coins, how are they handling difficulty adjustment... I heard if too many GPUs start mining the network can make it more difficult for them, while keeping CPU mining easier as long as then too many people do not CPU mine.

Does Dark, Cloak, XC and Monero have an advanced difficulty retargeting system?
hero member
Activity: 1302
Merit: 502
Why don't you include Monero?

Most likely due to the fact that the DRK thread has been filling up with CLOAK talk.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
To commodify ethicality is to ethicise the market
If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

- XC has a flexible and layered approach to privacy, which is to say there are several ways in which one can be private.
- This "layered" approach is important to make XC relevant for several use cases.

- Here are the functions that will be exposed to XC users:
     - conceal your address from the recipient (XC's equivalent of a stealth address)
     - conceal the amount sent/received (Multipath, i.e. splitting transactions into fragments and having them routed down separate paths through the network)
     - either send directly to recipient or use trustless mixing (that latter of which is a world first - a solution to the Byzantine Generals' problem for privacy-centric currencies)
     - conceal your IP address (The XC TOR Stick / embedded I2P-like node)

There are a lot of other aspects to XC, like mobile-centric development (fully functional staking mobile wallets) and blockchain 2.0 capabilities, but since DRK and CLOAK are anoncoins, the privacy-related stuff is relevant here.





hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 507
Freedom to choose
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Why don't you include Monero?
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