Topic: Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s - page 82. (Read 96804 times)

Full text of that law here, BTW:

http://www.china.org.cn/china/LegislationsForm2001-2010/2011-02/14/content_21917139.htm

These come from the last law.  The new law is more advanced and up to date.

However, I have seen Black Arrow staff on their forums state that they think they do not have to follow the new laws because they state that in their opinion these purchases were made before that law fully took effect, so I posted these, although I would obviously dispute their claim that they do not have to follow the current law, and will allow them to argue that with their government if they so choose.

I have been advised by the attorneys I have talked to in China to:

1.  Try to work with Black Arrow first and to document everything.  Be sure to keep own copies of tickets e-mails.  I know that if you open a new ticket they may take down the old ticket so that text will be lost.  I've obviously done this, but if people have not, open tickets and document, document, document.

2. File complaints with appropriate state and consumer agencies.  http://www.saic.gov.cn/english/ContactUs/
https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

3. take it to court if none of that works.

It's time to stop the complaining on this forum and via e-mail to Black Arrow, as it is not getting anything done, at least for me in terms of getting my money refunded.  They simply offer excuses and delay further.  If people want their money back they'll have to take it up a level.

I will continue to talk to lawyers in China about the proper course of action in terms of litigation and keep people informed, however, their initial advice is to get a solid paper trail moving on actions you've taken to try to work this out without going to court.  Be polite, but firm, in your communications, ie, don't swear, insult or berate.  This will not be looked on favorably by the court.

China has some very advanced consumer protection laws. I read they just drafted these. Are they retroactive?

These absolutly destroy BA's TOS. There's no way BA can keep our money and not deliver while claiming we agreed to it.

and, of course:

Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.

If you are in Germany maybe these people can help:

http://www.consumerprotection-productsafety.org/index.php?lang=en

Article 47 Business operators who supply commodities or services in the form of advance payment shall provide their commodities or services according to the agreements. Business operators who fail to provide their commodities or services according to the agreements shall fulfil the agreements or return the advance payment on the demand of the consumers, and shall also bear the interest of the advance payment and other necessary expenses that the consumers have to pay.

Article 39 Consumers whose legitimate rights and interests are infringed upon on account of commodities or services supplied by business operators by means of false advertisement may demand compensations from the business operators. Consumers may demand the competent administrative departments to punish the advertising agents who make false advertisements. Advertising agents who cannot provide the real names and addresses of the business operators shall be liable for compensation.

Chapter III Obligations of Business Operators

Article 16 Business operators shall, in their supply of commodities and services to consumers, fulfill their obligations stipulated in the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other laws and regulations concerned.

In case an agreement is reached between business operators and consumers, the business operators shall fulfill the obligations agreed upon in the agreement; but the agreement between the two parties shall not contravene the provisions of laws and regulations.

Article 17 Business operators shall listen to the consumers' opinions on the commodities and services they supply and accept consumers' supervision.

Article 18 Business operators shall guarantee that the commodities and services they supply meet the requirements for personal or property safety. As to commodities and services liable to harm personal or property safety, business operators shall give the consumers truthful explanation and clear-cut warnings, and shall explain or indicate the correct ways of using the commodities or receiving services as well as the methods of preventing damage.

Business operators shall, upon discovery of serious defects of the commodities or services they supply which are liable to harm personal or property safety even though the commodities are correctly applied or services are received in a correct way, immediately report to the administrative departments concerned and inform the consumers, and adopt measures to prevent damage.

Article 19 Business operators shall provide consumers with authentic information concerning their commodities or services, and may not make any false and misleading propaganda.

Business operators shall give truthful and definite replies to inquiries from consumers about the qualities of the commodities or services they supply and the operation methods thereof.

Shops shall mark clearly the prices of the commodities they supply.

Article 20 Business operators shall indicate their real names and marks.

Business operators who lease counters or grounds from others shall indicate their own real names and marks.

Article 21 Business operators who supply commodities or services shall make out for consumers invoices for purchases or documents of services in accordance with relevant regulations of the State or commercial practices; business operators must produce such invoices or documents where consumers so demand.

Article 22 Business operators shall guarantee the quality, functions, usage and term of validity which the commodities or services they supply should possess under normal operation or acceptance, except that consumers are aware of the defects before they buy the commodities or receive the services.

Business operators who employ advertisements, product instructions, samples or other ways to display the quality state of their commodities or services shall guarantee that the actual quality of the commodities or services they supply is in conformity with that demonstrated.

Article 23 Business operators who are under the obligation of repair or caveat venditor, or other responsibilities in accordance with regulations of the State or agreements with consumers shall carry out such obligations correspondingly according to such regulations or agreements, and may not deliberately delay or unreasonably refuse to do so.

Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.

Article 25 Business operators may not insult or slander consumers, may not search the body of consumers or the articles they carry with them, and may not violate the personal freedom of consumers.

I may be a bit off on #7 but the contents are currently 0Th/s and not the 2Th/s as per the agreement. I'm sure I can get a solid hit on all 8 sections after a few revisions.

Black Arrow has violated every section of the PRC's consumer protection act. Not to mention fraud over $5000 for taking customers money based on a lie.

Not only is the customer getting the shaft but I'll also assume Black Arrow isn't reporting all the revenue they're generating with the customers ASICs.

Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Consumer Rights and InterestsChapter VII Legal Responsibility

Article 40 Business operators shall, if the commodities and services they supply involve any of the following circumstances, bear civil liability in accordance with the provisions of the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other relevant laws and regulations, except as otherwise provided in the present Law:

(1) there existing defects in the commodities;

(2) not possessing the properties for use they should possess and no declaration thereabout is made at the time of sale;

(3) not conforming to the standards indicated on the commodities or on the packaging thereof;

(4) not conforming to the state of quality indicated by the product description or by physical samples;

(5) producing commodities that have been formally declared by the State to be eliminated or selling commodities that are no longer effective or deteriorated;

(6) commodities sold being short of weight or quantity;

(7) contents and costs of services being not in conformity with the agreements;

8 - deliberately delaying or unreasonably refusing consumers' requests for repair, remanufacture, replacement, return of goods, makeup for the short commodities, return of payment for goods or services, or compensation for losses;

it is for these guys.

Anyone that has a refund out with these people and would like to share the cost of an attorney, let me know.

If you have already have contacted me, I've got your info already, and will let you know when I have a short list of attorneys.

I'm looking for a lawyer in Shenzhen, have contacted a couple, and will get this process moving.

I love it, lets remove BA from the only part of this project that they did!  After outsourcing the chip, and using how many different teams from God knows how many different companies to manufacture the power supply and control board, I am really left wondering what they actually did in house besides design a 3D printed case for everything to sit in, that was still wrong multiple times.

I have an idea, how about Black Arrow sends TechnoBit 128x minions per X3 and have them ship customers 32x 400Gh/s units and we call it square.

The units should arrive while the difficulty is around 20 billion and customers can enjoy the same benefits as if they received their units on the promised delivery date.

Getting what I paid for (minus LCD, PSU & controller) seems fair enough doesn't it?

And the winner is Technobit!

http://technobit.eu/index.php?id_product=79&controller=product&id_lang=1

A statement from Black Arrow regarding their promise to ship on February 24th 2014:


It's now July 2014 and the X3 design is still not complete:


4 months past the stated shipping date and this thing is still on the drawing board?

Oh, and by-the-way "a few days" have already passed.

Shipping next week? lol

 

I was going to say, I don't think I have seen one person get on here and say, "wow it sure was easy to get setup and running!"  So not only are their hardware engineers incompetent, but it seems that their software guys are something to be desired.  Maybe, they made a bet that each group would do the others tasks for this entire project, just to see if it could get done!

If there is no tracking number now, the units will not arrive until at least next week as the post office will be closed on friday.

So much crying in this thread, it has become absolutely useless as a place to get information on this situation.