Topic: Read before investing in SuperNet ICO - page 2. (Read 8733 times)

It might be an ideal way for NXT whales too but I am not going to comment on that. I have been trying to follow the supernet thread for sometime but the constant addition (or BSing) is making my head spin. Best of luck to any one investing in it. I hope you guys make it out safely

That said I have been watching some of the coins on the forum, and god there is so much shit to shovel through. These shitcoins make jl777 ipo seem like a diamond.
These include Umbrella backed and insured coin - wtf are those?
Then there was a new 50 BTC ICO for Volatility coin, track volatility and do what exactly? I am not even sure and people bought 50 BTC worth. If they paid me that much, I would have finished the digging and prepared a report instead. I have to say, so many morons on this forum.

I also think so as it put a buying pressure on NXT.

A way for nxt holders to cashout? As laura@@ said?
I know that there are several whales holding millions of next..

Doesn't really matter with fewer people interested in digging and less newer discussions not happening; this will anyways die off.

Do not lock this thread.

No problem & glad to. Happy trails.

I was going to lock this thread but have decided against it.

Anyone wanting to crunch the numbers you can start with
1. "share of the total" is basically how much a particular price adds to the "holding company/asset total". Normally, value should reflect the constituents + a premium or a discount on the future prospect. Example - Nxtprivacy is priced at 9% discount over the holding, jl777hodl is at 8% premium, whereas sharkfund0 is at whopping 35% premium.


2. If you invest 10000 NXT into jl777 or sharkfund0, what will you finally buying and what cost? example - NXTPrivacy holds 40% cryptocard and 60% private bet, investing in NXTPrivacy and privatebet at 10% both means you buy 10% privatebet + how much more %age of privatebet + cyrptocard?

3. From above if the holding company pricing = constituent asset + premium or - discount, how would buying a constituent affect the asset price? or how would buying the asset affect the constituent price? Where does the money flow to?

Not really baffled, rather sad over the period of time. Normally there are ANN threads where I say something, people start FUD, FUD, FUD, and I keep my mouth shut and move on. Then there was winning proclamation that "oh, we chased the guy away!" and lot of chest thumping. I don't really mind it.

But this was not SuperNet ANN thread and neither this was not an all-out attack. I thought people would read properly and have better sense which obviously they dint, this was not something which went down well with me about Monero and now not with SuperNet.

In any case, nice discussion with you on this. Thanks.

Cool...but the people who are at least apparently shouting you down are "pre-burned" too. Sadly, the typical critic 'round here is someone who seems impervious to counter-arguments; that's why they're pegged as FUDsters and trolls. They're pegged that way because they act that way. And you were lumped in with the rest of them; that's the reason for the shouting. FYI if you're baffled. 

Meh, I am not going to do the numbers for anyone who doesn't want to do it. shout as they may.  Frankly dont care cause its people's money to burn.
 
I hope you do understand how holding companies are structured and supposed to work when you made the unorthodox holding comment. Not just a wiki page definition as to what they actually are. I remember jl777 giving a keiretsu comment and he was taken to the woodshed.

I have been quite clear with my intentions early on, people are free to not believe me and invest, convincing was never intention of this thread. The title set was - "Read before investing in SuperNet" not "Supernet is a scam, run run run!!". So I feel attempts by some supernet people unwarranted and concerning -- that alone is enough for me to not invest - aside from my concerns about jl777, I am not going to be part of any coin community which thinks shouting down a person trying to present a contararion view is the way to go about. Yes that means I have hardly got coins into which I invest in but I am happy with what I got.

I just wanted to say, explicitly, that the warning didn't result from any bad experience here - you might say I came in "pre-burned"


In your opinion. Really, that's all you have with respect to that unorthodox set of assets. It's fishy to you, but that's a value judgment on your part. My own value judgment is, "that's the man's style." Believe it or not, I actually spent a full day doing due-diligence on Supernet - and at the end I plunked down only half a Bitcoin!

Essentially, I'm trying to think like a lawyer (which I'm not) in a way that I hope proves to be to your benefit. You do stick out from the usual gang of critics because you're not bullheaded about what you write.

At least not to me...

I think NxtBlg said it best here:


If you think the accusations that you've made logically follow from the evidence that you presented, even in a loose sense, then no one is going to convince you otherwise. Because if you go from the spreadsheet to thinking that James is literally running a long con scam in which he intends to bilk massive amounts of money from people who invest in his assets, then you're obviously deriving that based on the assumption that his intentions have been bad from the beginning.

Where as I've come to believe that it's fairly unlikely that his intentions are bad in anyway(and are likely to be good), based on how I've seen him conduct his business dealing thus far and how he's dealt with people in matters related to money. That's my opinion of him at the moment, subject to change if I observe him doing things that might conflict with my current judgement of him as a person.

As time goes on we will see what happens and how James acts in relation to his business dealings. At this point all eyes are on him now in the crypto community. Not just the NXT community. So I'm certain this will not be the last of people accusing him of doing wrong. Everyone will be watching, everything is recorded on public ledgers for all to see as you've shown here with your break down of the asset cross ownership. So far i'm unconvinced of any of the claims that multiple anonymous accounts have made against him thus far, but I'm watching just as everyone else will be.

Thank you


Um, no, I have more than enough evidence and its all there in the op. They say "devil is in the details" and it would get an astute thinker to go through whats been presented and what I am getting at. I think the op already says something along the line that - "you might interpret what has been written in your own way. but if you need help get someone else to help you". most of the assets from jl777 are holding companies and holding companies holding another companies holding another companies are fishy even in the real world - in a "ponzi" kind of way.

I like that you admit to the colored glasses but then in a similarly expressed opinion, I would say I am not pro or anti anyone, but then people find it difficult to believe as I am obviously spreading FUD (it is a newbie account right? so why bother).

The only person, I actually engaged was Este Nuno, because he wanted "proofs", I even called him a moron for doing that. If he is happy with what is there in front of him and wants to invest, it was his prerogative. This has been repeated a large number of times. People who want details can dig and find out. I for one, frankly don't have the time to spoon feed the details. Hence giving up on replying to him. Hell I might even lock this thread for good cause there is no more discussion required. Anyone who wants to know more can do their own research.
Still thanks for the warning.

Except that Ethereum is not an investment fund that uses capital raised to invest on behalf of shareholders where as sharkfund0 is as far as I know. Distribution of an investment fund?

If I created my own investment fund named fishfund0 tomorrow and issued 10000 shares at 1 BTC each and only ended up selling 20 shares then I would have 20 BTC in capital to invest with. And if 10 of those share were either bought by me or issued to me through the terms of the fund then it wouldn't make any difference what so ever in how the fund operates. 9980 outstanding shares or 100000. It's not a cryptocurrency or anything like Ether, or even XRP.

"please abstain from stating things emanating out of it as facts." I have no idea what you're referring to here and if you'd like to give me an example of me claiming something to be a fact that's not just my supposition, please do.


I thought you might be surprised that we decided not to join superNET considering you've been portraying me as a "kool aid drinker" this whole time.

The speculative value of superNET comes from the potential profits that are expected to be paid as dividends to shareholders. The intention is to become a portal for every user of crypto. To the point where people won't need to use any other wallet than the one they have that has the superNET GUI integrated in to it. If crypto continues to grow and superNET works out how it's intended to it's not too hard to imagine that having a share in a service such as this might be profitable. It's definitely risky like every thing in this space, and no one is making any guarantees.


I don't understand what you're getting at here. You said specifically: "Where does it talk about him about sharkfund0 or jl777hodl's holding? No where."

He's putting in his assets, one of which include 4.46% ownership in jl777hodl. He owns the assets he's putting in. I don't see what sharkfund0 has to do with this exchange considering there's no purchase of shares as far I know. Only a transfer of asset between James and UNITY.

Where's the deception?

I don't think I flip flop. You've implied from the beginning that there has been some sort of intentional deception on James' part regarding his ownership in assets related to him. And you've also accused him of doing much worse than that based on absolutely nothing that implies any of the things you've accused. I've maintained from the beginning that I have not observed him to be deceptive at all in his communications regarding his assets. If you want to show me that I've been misreading or ignoring his posts feel free to show me where I'm wrong.


Again, please show me where I've used language that implies that I presented that as a fact. I try to specifically make sure that I don't do such things, so if you have an example please quote it. In this instance I said "seem to", but you keep insisting that I presented that as a fact when I think should have been fairly obvious that I was just making an observation that is probably right based on the amount of money that gets invested in these assets, but isn't something that I would ever try to pass off as anything more than 'likely'. The "wealthy" part comes from the fact that there are many holders of large amounts of NXT in the NXT community and the market value of their NXT is often significant. You can claim that you think that James is the on who holds all those other accounts that hold significant percentages in sharkfund0 or any other asset, but from what I can tell there are real people in the NXT community who do actively invest in the AE(and presumable some of James' assets as well considering their market caps). Someone more involved with the NXT community can elaborate more on this perhaps.

Water under the digital bridge.


Let me be more precise - this time briefly. All you have at this point is evidence that there's cross-ownership. In and of itself, all you've shown is that James' assets are indistinguishable from a collection that in part serves as a set of holding companies. Holding companies are 100% legitimate in the outside world, and have been so for ~ a century if not more.

Sorry, but to someone who uses Occam's Razor in my admittedly pro-James way you've only demonstrated that James has a liking for a complex cross-ownership structure whose assets are a hybrid between operating and holding. In my opinion, that's all you have. As for anything that would demonstrate shenanigans with respect to valuations, I saw nothing. Hence my admittedly strict use of the word "surmise."

But before I go, I did compose that "unreasonable" part as a disguised warning to you. There are some people around here that are demanding, and you might find yourself feeling obliged to work a lot for free without quite knowing why. "Know When To Draw The Line." 

Really appreciate this post even though I even called you suspicious on the Simgate asset and jl777hodl having majority of them.

The evidence is clearly from the fact that cross asset holds in cases exceeds 50% which should be suspicious in itself but I guess we on BCT are so blind with "reputation only" that it requires empirical evidence from me and not from jl777.  It is at best a "surmised" explanation.

I can only say Huh? and offer you something like this. Say ethereum team offers 10million coin for sale (ethereum cause they call themselves DACs rather than coins), out of which only 1.4million is sold. And it is such that, 0.532 million of coins is held by Vitalik. Now tell me what is wrong with the picture? (hint distribution)

I for one having been saying that its fine if you want to invest in Supernet ie"agree to disagree". But you kept piling on "op doesn't understand" or "what proof you have of a pump?" whereas it was already stated. So thankfully, that got through you that I am fine with you not agreeing but please abstain from stating things emanating out of it as facts.

Ok my bad on the comment then. Its difficult to read motives when you are throwing things like "op doesn't understand". Though I am scratching my head, whats so shocking about Bitmark not deciding to join and you being part of it? hm....you mean how I called you an unreliable "objective" observer? Read the first line of this para.

As for the long list, its basically gateway for crypto + fiat along with intergrated exchange (how many coins have that in their wallet?). Maybe bitmark's reputation system and privatebet will be something new. And what is that exactly worth? 10k BTC?

Relevant assets for the proposed deal?

what you say now and said earlier are in clear conflict. First you say "OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP." meaning jl777 has highligted all his dealings and people on his thread are aware of it that too in the thread op and I was in the wrong., now you say only what is relevant?

As I said, you flip flop so often its quite clear (IMO ) where your sympathy lies.

Lets say even if those are "relevant" actually do some maths and see if the calculations he gave hold up (now before you ask me for proof, for once be an objective observer and do some digging).

Yes you can be objective and have opinions but not present them as facts.

The whole wealthy thing is your perception, and if you follow the "facts" - the largest owners of sharkfund0 (again to rake this up, why I am mentioning this is because of the 400% returns) - is that the largest "wealthy" owner of sharkfund0 is jl777 himself. The largest holder after his fund are:
 NXT-G9WM-6HNW-FMF2-6T8M2 @ 12.5%. Though this account holds most of the jl777 assets only, I still refrained from making a wild guess and saying this was his too
NXT-3R28-ZBCB-E8GT-C34JC - @ 10%

rounding up more than 85% of the issue. So I am still finding the whole "largest owenrs" of nxt part unbelievable.

You know, again in the realm of "agree to disagree", it could also mean that NXT AE is full of shitty assets no one wants to hold. Anyone wanting to utilise AE needs to depend on jl777's asset. Something like cryptsy on cryptostocks.com  

Edit: Anways I am tired of debating this out with you. But if you think reputation and "not showing any signs" is good enough, do read up on Allen Stanford - his name was synomous with Standford university even when he was not associated with it.

You're right. I'm trying to get away from my former life as a pedant, but I still have enough pedant power to chip in here. To be more than, the OP's surmise (might as well call it that) requires - at a minimum - documentation of the complete trade records of said assets plus either a well-reasoned argument or a standard algo that demonstrates why the trading pattern of these assets - over their lifetime of they being traded - is suspicious.

And that would require a lotta work plus some hard research & thinking. Frankly, I'm not going to blame the OP for punting away all the work it would require; he has a life and it's plainly unreasonable to expect him to put in a lot of work for free. Suffice it to say that I'm at least vaguely aware of the pitfalls and hidden responsibilities awaiting anyone who tries to play securities regulator on the Internet. The SEC's job is actually much more straightforward because the stock market is aged and there's many terabytes' worth of trade records that can be used to infer a reasonably tight set of statistical quirks that indicate malfeasance.

As of now - I'm guessing here - the total number of trades of all Nxt assets doesn't comprise a large enough statistical universe from which to draw reasonably solid inferences about trading patterns that clearly indicate something on the sly has taken place. So instead, and thanks to the time pressures we all have, we have to fly on opinion, supposition, conjecture and - yes - surmise. When flying blind's all you can do, you fly blind if you must. Or, you don't fly at all and learn to live with being ground-bound.

DISCLOSURE: I own 100 TOKENs, but it's far from the majority of my portfolio.

Maybe I missing something but I don't really see how the amount of shares issued in an asset like sharkfund0 really matters. The assets are listed to raise capital that gets invested back in other currencies/assets that the fund manager decides are acceptable for the fund. At least that's the way I think it operates, I'm not an expert on jl777 assets at all. But from my reading and learning about superNET and his assets I have never gotten the impression that he's attempting to deceive or hide information from people regarding them. That's where me and you differ I think, you seem to think that he's intentionally attempting to deceive potential investors about the nature of his assets.


I don't think we're really disagreeing here. I've been saying that people who want to believe that superNET is a scam will read what you wrote and use it to further cement their opinion that it is such. Like you say, they already have perceived notions about it.

And yes, I'm sure thousands of people if not tens of thousands of people on here who are smarter than me who won't invest in superNET.


This is where I don't think you're understanding me. Before when I qualified the lines of code statement with "(his words)" you perceived that I meant that as some sort of praise towards him and thought that was some sort of statement of deference to him(your "jesus" comment before). I meant it to mean that I haven't independently checked that fact out at all so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I know how github works and I know how meaningless lines of code are as a metric which is why I was trying to convey the fact that he could simply be saying that as something that's 'technically true' but doesn't necessarily mean much.

With regards to Bitmark marking will be integrated in to superNET, but each marking adoption does all the marking transactions locally and then hashes them in to a merkle tree and records them in the Bitmark blockchain a specified times.

(ready for a shocker? I'm part of the Bitmark core team(not a dev yet though) and we decided not to join superNET, but superNET can still integrate marking as anyone can since it's free software and we will assist them in implementing it.)

Yes, BBR will have to be converted like you say. And that part of superNET does serve a similar function as ripple, but as you can see in my list it's quite a bit more than just a collection of gateways.

I try to be objective, but I also have come to like the idea behind superNET. Doesn't mean that I'm not interested in the truth.


Those are the relevant assets for the proposed deal.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that you've made people aware who were not aware that James holds significant portions of his own assets. It makes sense to me for someone operating a fund such as sharkfund0 or jl777hodl to own a large percentage of them in order to maximize your own profits and incentives.

I think it's somewhat obvious that James would own a large portion of his own assets, but if that's not obvious to people then that's fine. What you've done here is good information for anyone who was unware, but I think it could have been presented in a better manner.


The wealthy individuals comment is just my perception based on a bit of reading on the NXT forum where people tend to speak of investing large amounts of NXT and BTC in these type of assets. I could be wrong, I don't know enough about the NXT community to say definitively, which is why I said there "seem to be". Just what it looks like from what I can tell.

I can be objective and still have opinions too, right? Based on all of my readings thus far and watching how he's handled manners related to money, I personally think it's unlikely that it's something he would do. Again, this is where we seem to differ because you've drawn completely different conclusions than I have and seem to think he's some sort of scam artist. Nothing we can do here but wait to see how things play out.

Edited.