Topic: Residential Limit 15amp or 20amp? - page 2. (Read 13248 times)

C14 is still rated for 10A, and we're not pulling 2kW through any single port. In fact, most of our individual power cables (after the PDU) will only be pulling 3-5A, so I think it'll be fine.

I picked up a CW-8H2-L630 to try. 208-240V 24A 8xC13 Switched PDU. It was cheap, with plenty of features. I can't wait to try it out and see how well it works.

Here is a good one for your c19 units

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-4-Port-200-240V-PDU-L6-30-AP6031-5T439-/191035120115?pt=US_Power_Distribution_Units&hash=item2c7a9499f3

Here is the cord

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-8-FT-C19-TO-C20-POWER-EXTENSION-CORD-16A-230V-2-5M-1000W-2X976-CN-02X976-/390563779661?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aef6a544d

1x 24k btu should be close to enough for 3 9kw racks.  2x 18k btu would be plenty. Assuming your not cooling a large space along with the racks. However keep in mind window air units are not ideal for this situation.

Do not use a c14 to c19 adapter.  The c19 cable is rated for more power than the c14 can safely carry. Use a different pdu with a c19 connector to run your "beefier" stuff.

They make higher ampacity multiphase pdus that can handle a lot more load.  It is kind of a balance, the larger pdus save on wiring, but the availability of the pdu can be more challenging or expensive.

That is a lot of info, and exactly what I was looking for! Thank you SO much!

I hadn't realized that the PDUs were already derated. This makes much more sense when planning everything out. We'll probably have to run a subpanel to our room like you suggested, and then we'll add as many 30A breakers as we need. This gives us the option to grow, and now I feel a whole lot more comfortable, knowing exactly what we need.

Yeah, all of our ATX PSUs will use a standard C14-C13 power cable, but we have some PSUs that will use a C14-C19 cable. I briefly checked out that model PDU, and looks like it will do exactly what we want.

We've already started with a half a rack, and are planning on moving that half rack to a new location (and then filling in another 2 racks), but we haven't decided which. Either one can have power brought to it, but cooling is another issue, and more than likely for another thread. One thought was a wide, short room which has 5 windows, and we could put a 24000btu window AC in each one. Another option was a smaller room with only 2 windows, and maybe an exhaust fan near the ceiling. Both rooms have tall ceilings, and we're in the NE, so it's pretty cold this time of year. As a temporary solution, we could just have the ACs on the fan setting, blowing in the 20F air! Once summer hits it'll be different, but we can get situated by then.

But back on topic. I've got the info I need for the power, so I thank you again!

Edit: you may already know some of this the post became more of a general guide as I kept type.

So a couple things. The first is that in the use despite the common usage of "110" or "220" nominal voltage is 120 & 240.  You should however stick a multimeter into an outlet to find out.  You can test a 120V outlet, the 240V is going to be double that.  Unless you are at the far end of distribution the measured voltage at the outlet is probably closer to 120/240 then 110 /120.  Still you should adjust the power capacity numbers based off your actual voltage.

The second is that the 24A per PDU already includes the derate.  The circuit (30A breaker, 10AWG wiring, NEMA L6-30R outlet) is rated for 30A peak load.  Continual load is derated to 80% of that so 30A * 0.8 = 24A.  A code compliant circuit using a NEMA L6-30R receptacle (proper name for "outlet", outlets are actually on the PDU) is good for 24A continual or 30A peak.  That is why the PDU lists 24A, you don't have to further derate that.  Putting it together with 240V means each PDU is good for 5.76KW of power per pdu.

Third.  I am sure you have double checked but most PDU don't use C19 connectors.  I assume your server PDU is "beefy" and pulls more than 12A?  Just don't want someone ready briefly to be confused.  Almost all PSU have a C13 connector.  PDU have a C14 connector so the cable most people will need is one C13 to C14 cable per device. 

Are there other options? 
Well there are but I think you find any other option is either more expensive or not up to code. 240V, 30A circuit just comes down to the most economical choice.  The used PDUs are dirt cheap, the outlets are nothing "exotic" (even home depot probably carries a NEMA L6-30R is look hard enough) and while 10AWG isn't "fun" to work with it is still a lot easier to manage then the larger cables.  For example the standard connector for a 50A circuit is a NEMA L6-50R which doesn't exist except on paper, as safer pin and sleeve solutions are used. One common alternative is the California standard (become widely used in movie industry) http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=6272 

Yeah that is the plug only.  $70.  A matching outlet is another $50 to $70.  To make a custom cable which converts a 50A connector into 2x NEMAL L6-30 plus the 50A outlet is probably going to run you $250+.   So I am not saying "the 30A route" is the only possible way to deliver power, I am just saying trust me I did the research and cost per KW you aren't going to find a cheaper, code compliant solution then using 240V 30A circuits and 30A (derated to 24A) used PDUs. 

So if you need <5.76KW of power.  Install one 30A breaker, make one 10AWG run, install one NEM L6-30R outlet, and get one matching PDU*.
So if you need <11.52KW of power.  Install two 30A breakers, make two 10AWG run, install two NEM L6-30R outlets, and get two matching PDUs*.
So if you need <17.28KW of power.  Install three 30A breakers, make three 10AWG run, install three NEM L6-30R outlets, and get three matching PDUs*.
So if you need <23.04KW of power.  Install four 30A breakers, make four 10AWG run, install four NEM L6-30R outlets, and get four matching PDUs*.
...

* I recommend using the APC AP9571.  There is nothing magical about it but APC made millions of them so there are tons of used ones on ebay for dirt cheap.


An ebay listing may say 208V but it works fine at 240V as well (datacenters are usually 208V which is why it lists that).
30A, 24A derated (5.76KW usable)
NEMA L6-30P plug to match your economical NAM L6-30R recptacle.
Has twelve C14 outlets.
Just get some C14 to C13 cables from amazon or monoprice (<$5 ea) to connect from the PDU to each PSU.

If the distance from your breaker panel to where your rigs (and NEMA L6-30R receptacles) is long you may want to consider a subpanel.  How this would work is that in your main panel one or more high current breakers is used and a single run with large gauge wire is run to a sub panel located near the rigs.   The sub panel then has say 6 30A breakers and short 10 AWG runs to NEMA L6-30R receptacles.

If you go another route just remember you can pull the full rated current of the PDU (as it has already been derated).  However the circuit (receptacle, wiring, and breaker) has to be designed such that the continual load is only 80% of the circuit peak capacity. Some PDU labels will list both capacities (30A, 24A derated).  This is why you will find PDUs generally are 12, 16, 24, or 40 Amps.

12A PDU is 80% of a 15A circuit (15A outlet, wiring, and breaker)
16A PDU is 80% of a 20A circuit (20A outlet, wiring, and breaker)
24A PDU is 80% of a 30A circuit (30A outlet, wiring, and breaker)  <- The sweet spot in terms of $/KW installed
40A PDU is 80% of a 50A circuit (50A outlet, wiring, and breaker)

Another piece of advice is to start small (i.e. start with enough gear to fill one 5.76KW "unit").  Speaking from personal experience when you start getting into the tens of KW of power range everything becomes more of a challenge especially cooling.  It is much easier to design a single efficient layout (say half a rack) and then scale out, rather than buying gear needing 30KW+ and then realizing the engineering, power, and cooling challenges are no joke.

Don't bother looking at brand stores like Office Depot ,Home Depot , menards, or best buy ! The don't have it. I went with new egg 10 feet 14 Awg for $13.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120828

I was laughing at myself when the electrician in my house asking me to plug something to test the Newley installed breaker! Of course nothing fit the pdu cause it's that c 13 needs c14 and I am trying to plug my regular standard ATX to the pdu  

Hey crazyates! Welcome to the thread!  Sounds like you got a handful there ..

Hopefully one of the resident gurus can take a stab at your questions.. good luck!



Hopefully
If you are 15 then talk to the home owner!! This is serious ****!  Do not open your panel or attempt yourself!

We're looking at setting up 2-3 server racks worth of GPU rigs, and powering them all off 220. Each rack will be using ~8kW (possible more), which will be 35+A if we use 220.

So lets say we use 9kW per rack. We'll just do two of your setups? 6x 30A 220 breakers. 10ga wire run ~100ft to our room, and terminate to 6x L6-30R outlets. 2x Compaq 24A PDUs with L6-30R plugs per rack. Then each PDU will power 3 rigs, with 3 of these, and 3 of these. Each rig will use an ATX PSU, and a custom server PSU.

The problem I see is that the breaker is 30A, but is being limited by the PDU to 24A, which if run at 80% load is only ~20A. Is it a better idea to install a single 50A 220 breaker per rack, run 8awg wire to 2x L6-30P, and then run both of the 24A PDUs per rack to those? The actual draw through the PDUs wouldn't change, would still be at ~20A each, but now you've got 8awg wire carrying 40A to a 50A breaker, rather than 2x 10awg carrying 20A each to 2x 30A breakers. Does this make sense?

Although I suppose if we did that, we're really limited to 40A per rack. If we went with the 2x 30A, we could upgrade the 2x 24A PDUs with 4x 16A PDUs. As long as each of the 16A PDUs were kept below 13A, the draw per breaker would be ~25A, and the total draw per rack could be increased to 52A, or 11kW.

So if we're only pulling 8-9kW per rack, we could get away with a 50A breaker and 2x 24A PDUs? But if we wanted to pull more, splitting it up between multiple breakers would give us more headroom?

I also realize that we're going to have to run another breaker for our AC equipment, but that's a topic for another day. And I'm not really an electrician, I'm just trying to figure this all out. Any suggestions welcome!

D&T!! You are a gem man! Thanks!! I will definitely check out https://bitsimple.com/

Electricity bill is due in about a week and a half..

I don't need a tip (I got a coin or two in the ole wallet.dat), glad to help for free.  My miner days are likely coming to a close so I will need to mine vicariously.


If you absolutely feel the need to help ...  consider https://bitSimple.com next time you need to sell some coins to pay that electric bill.

Good to know this is being talked about. The thread should be called "How not to burn your house down". Love it keep up the good work. Now only if someone translated everything in this thread so that a 15 year old boy could understand then I'm goodhhahaha

DeathAndTaxes!!! Nice link .. cheap too!!

 Thanks for your contribution to this thread! Where is your btc tip jar..!! I wanna by ya beer!
Ill hunt you down from your site if i dont hear from you! Thanks again.






 



^^ hey Tom thanks for the feedback! I just tried to source some locally with no luck.. im gonna try frys tomorrow before i just grab something online..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00066HQ50/ref=cm_sw_su_dp

That looks great! Cheap too.. The only thing i can think of is the one that repairguy posted was 6' i think!

I can really use the distance. In fact one of my miners is about 20 feet from where the pdu is and i was thinking about daisy chaining a couple of these cords to get to it so the longer the better.

I also wanted to take his advice and get an 14AWG one at least and the one listed on amazon does not list wire gauge.

In terms of costs .. I paid close to $140 to have all the breakers on the right side of my panel swapped out since they had bad contacts and they were chared and black at the contacts and they were old discontinued breakers too. Swapped one of the ones on the left too.. That price included a new 30a dedicated breaker and doing the home-run from the panel and installing a new outlet.

So glad i didn't need a sub panel or a completely new panel. That would have ballooned the costs.



 

While that will work they make cords which have the correct connectors on each end.  As pointed out above you just need a C13 to C14 cord.  It is pretty common in datacenters.   Almost all electronics (like your ATX PSU) have C14 inlet, and PDU have C13 outlet.  So a single cord is used for everything.  Servers, switches, routers, firewalls, etc.

For amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-P004-004-18AWG-Connectors/dp/B003MG9F78/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1390094044&sr=1-2&keywords=C13+to+C14

This is just an example I typed "C13 to C14" there may be (and likely is a cheaper, better version) but the cable one needs to go from PDU to PSU without any adapters is a C13 to C14 cable.

I had the same question on adapters and got some of these http://amzn.com/B004OC579E and these http://amzn.com/B00066HQ50. They both seem to do the trick, though I don't have my outlet installed yet, so haven't fired everything up. They're pretty inexpensive, especially if you have Prime.

Btw, to your original post, I had an electrician install a 50A subpanel to my basement (rather than running 2 circuits). I'll run a 30A 240 and 20A 110 from it. It cost $550 -- they said it generally is about $10 * #Amps, more or less. That's in Colorado, fwiw, maybe give a general ballpark at least. It was a pretty short run from my existing panel (maybe 25'?) and another friend helped get it prepped with a channel through to the basement.

My main gear will run on the 240 and I'll have that 20A if I need to add a/c or for future machines. Thanks also to all in this thread for the advice!

^^ Good deal! Thanks again man! I will source it tomorrow hopefully locally.. if not i will snag a couple from the one you linked to.

Good luck to you with your rig building. The cord you are looking for is a c13 to c14, and if you look around be sure to use one that is at least 14awg.

That whole deal with unnaceptable irritated me because he provided wrong information and I corrected him and referenced the code, then he still argued with me about something he clearly had no knowledge of.  I guess I kind of took it as insulting.  Again sorry.

^^ Aw man.. now i feel bad.    Apology accepted! I had one of those days last week so i know what ya mean!

Thanks for your input in this thread man!! Good luck on what you were working on..

Sorry, I was being a large dick, I apologize. By the double f bomb drop I hope your not still upset with me.  I really did intend to help, otherwise I wouldn't have posted. I am having difficulty with something totally different and have been screwing with it for idk how many hours and it was pissing me off and vented a little here, With the spoon fed comment, Sorry.

However, Nothing irritates me more than people who claim to know what they are doing and clearly have no idea, I corrected him, referenced the code and he still argued. Wtf? 

I really do want to be helpful, I enjoy this hobby and want to encourage others the same.

^^ Hey Repair guy thanks!! But dont be a dickhead! You were snarking at Unacceptable for trying to help and he had to call you out on it for you to even retort with an answer  ..

If you are a prick by nature and im asking something of you that you just cant manage, i understand..

In life you always pay for everything with time, money or inconvenience. In this case i paid with cash for an electrician and parts and in btc i will be paying to whatever Death&Taxes bitcoin address is.

Furthermore i may just pony up some btc to a couple other random people in this thread like Pentax, LostDutchman, Coinhoarder, Dalkore, Unacceptable and lightfoot since they gladly jumped to help a newbie miner from making mistakes that may lead to his home burning down. I work like 10 hours a day so i may miss some stuff when im speed reading just trying to get stuff to work and they where helpful and appreciated.

 Now if you have another snarky reply then just shut the fuck up and and get the fuck out my thread.  

But if you want to be helpful in a thread that may help many other people, now and in the future then carry on. Your knowledge and experience is welcome.


Everybody else, thank you very much your help was very much appreciated! Mission is accomplished!! I got a dedicated 30a breaker. I got the 10 gauge branch line and the nema l6-30r locking outlet & PDU so im good to go!  If i scale up any further ill just duplicate the setup.



For anyone starting this thread backwards you want this below!

********************************************************
THE DEATH&TAXES PROTOCOL :
 30A breaker, 10AWG branch line, and a NEMA L6-30R outlet (240V, 30A, locking).  Cheap used datacenter PDU with a NEMA L6-30P plug.  "Good for a solid 5.76KW."