Retirement Age for Workers - Does this Make Sense? - page 10.

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Quote from: Fiatless on April 30, 2023, 09:31:24 PM

The French government is trying to reduce the cost of paying salaries and other employment benefits. When workers retire they have to receive gratuity and pension which affects the finance of the government. The government also needs to employ new staff to fill the position of these retirees which is also capital intensive. So to save money, they have to increase the age of retirees to make them work more years, which will also help the government to save the cost of employing new staff for an extra two years.

This policy will also help in reducing the number of foreign professionals that will be attracted to France. But the government fails to understand that forcing people to work against their will may lead to low productivity. Although some people might like the policy because they still want to be active for more years, I think a high number of French workers are against this policy and we might be more protests today.

This is the gist of it, this is about money and nothing else, the French government likes most governments around the world is heavily indebted and they need to find ways to reduce their expenses, and one way to do it is to increase the age at which people can retire as they can avoid paying those people the money they are owed for a few extra years, but this is nothing more than a temporary solution as eventually people will work for that extra period of time and retire anyway, so unless the French government finds a way to increase its tax revenue they may begin to consider more extreme options, like raising the retirement age for workers again or simply stop paying their obligations to them.

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Quote from: Hispo on April 30, 2023, 03:26:59 PM

I am not so well informed on the French politics, but I'm my personal opinion and raise in the age of retirement is viewed as a cut in the governments plan for those desire to retire and spend the rest of their life in a calm situation, enjoying the money they have managed to accumulate during their professional career.

I am not sure why Macron needed to do this, are there not enough experienced workers in France ? Why not start a goverment program to recruit professionals adroad?

Even thought it is only a difference of two years I can perfectly see why anyone would not feel happy with that.

The French government is trying to reduce the cost of paying salaries and other employment benefits. When workers retire they have to receive gratuity and pension which affects the finance of the government. The government also needs to employ new staff to fill the position of these retirees which is also capital intensive. So to save money, they have to increase the age of retirees to make them work more years, which will also help the government to save the cost of employing new staff for an extra two years.

This policy will also help in reducing the number of foreign professionals that will be attracted to France. But the government fails to understand that forcing people to work against their will may lead to low productivity. Although some people might like the policy because they still want to be active for more years, I think a high number of French workers are against this policy and we might be more protests today.

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I am not so well informed on the French politics, but I'm my personal opinion and raise in the age of retirement is viewed as a cut in the governments plan for those desire to retire and spend the rest of their life in a calm situation, enjoying the money they have managed to accumulate during their professional career.

I am not sure why Macron needed to do this, are there not enough experienced workers in France ? Why not start a goverment program to recruit professionals adroad?

Even thought it is only a difference of two years I can perfectly see why anyone would not feel happy with that.

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Quote from: uneng on April 23, 2023, 04:12:03 PM

In my opinion retirement age should be around the 50's of someone's age, despite them being men or women. And the age should be also the same for both genders. After all, is all this talk about equality for real or not?

I say that about the age, because from my experience, always I talk to people who are on their 52-58 years old, they show a lot of disinterest for working. They complain about it, they say it's time to stop and take easy with daily life, and when they are forced into something they aren't willing to do (regards work, in special), they become angry, annoyed, upset, depressed. So once they reach the 60's, they have a lot of negative sequels on their behavior, that potentially prejudice the after-retirement life considerably.

Even if I agree in principle that those which have worked for so long should enjoy a period of rest once they are old, we must remember that not long ago people literally worked until a few days before their death, and the longer people live and the more time they spend not working then the more expensive they become for governments all around the world, and this will eventually cause governments to simply stop paying pensions all around the world, so if anyone wants to retire early and avoid this scenario then they have no other option but to save and invest their money on their own.

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Quote from: crzy on April 23, 2023, 04:05:40 PM

Increasing the age for retirement is like delaying their benefits for the sake of the government interest and I don’t agree with this one. In my country 60 years old is the retirement age and that is the only time you can get benefits from government, this could be an ideal age after working for so many years, i don’t know the culture in France but I don’t think this is a good idea, having an old employee can affect the company on many cases.

If I'm not wrong you're from India. Earlier retirement needs to be followed, maybe something around 55 is good in my understanding. After 60 even the fittest will feel tired and they doesn't have the time to enjoy. If the retirement age is 55 years of age, atleast they'll enjoy life for the next five years and then take rest. In my country it is like they spend 60 years working and spend the retirement fund on their children's education and marriage. With what they receive as pension they run the daily life. In that a major portion goes to medical expense.

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In my opinion retirement age should be around the 50's of someone's age, despite them being men or women. And the age should be also the same for both genders. After all, is all this talk about equality for real or not?

I say that about the age, because from my experience, always I talk to people who are on their 52-58 years old, they show a lot of disinterest for working. They complain about it, they say it's time to stop and take easy with daily life, and when they are forced into something they aren't willing to do (regards work, in special), they become angry, annoyed, upset, depressed. So once they reach the 60's, they have a lot of negative sequels on their behavior, that potentially prejudice the after-retirement life considerably.

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Increasing the age for retirement is like delaying their benefits for the sake of the government interest and I don’t agree with this one. In my country 60 years old is the retirement age and that is the only time you can get benefits from government, this could be an ideal age after working for so many years, i don’t know the culture in France but I don’t think this is a good idea, having an old employee can affect the company on many cases.

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Quote from: mvdheuvel1983 on April 22, 2023, 11:21:33 AM

...
What sense does this make? Would you agree or disagree?

"Full retirement" in Serbia is at 65 years and 40 years in service, for men. If you have only one of those conditions met you can go to pension, but it will be reduced by some %! Before in "communism and socialism" it was different, but now we have capitalism. And as I read from the news we will go to 67.5 soon, but nobody will raise their voice about that... So I have respect for French workers, they fight for their rights. I hope they will endure... but it will be tricky.

I am not sure if that makes or doesn't make any sense, I guess it all depends on where you live... in which part of the world you belong. The conditions are different when you move a bit on any side. The point should be on people who fight for their rights, if we do not fight for our rights we can't expect some changes.

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Quote from: mvdheuvel1983 on April 22, 2023, 11:21:33 AM

Quote

France's Constitutional Council on Friday approved an unpopular plan to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64, in a victory for President Emmanuel Macron after three months of mass protests over the legislation that have damaged his leadership.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/france-retirement-age-raise-64-approved-constitutional-council/

This so-called measure has several benefits and drawbacks. The elder employees can benefit from their years of experience if they are retained on the job for longer, which is one advantage. The drawback of this is that many workplaces will report low performance because there is an inverse relationship between a person's success at work and their deterioration in cognitive and physical capacities.

Regardless, what I think is that the government shouldn't shove it down the throat of people. Workers who are approaching retirement age should be given a choice after appraisal to keep working or retire.

What sense does this make? Would you agree or disagree?

The lesson which should be learned from all of this is to not be dependent on your government for such a thing and instead save on your own for your retirement, the pension system all around the world is either bankrupt or its liabilities are way higher than the money they receive, so at some point governments will simply wash their hands and not pay a single dime anymore, and anyone which failed to create a retirement fund on their own will suffer when this inexorably happens.

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Quote from: mvdheuvel1983 on April 22, 2023, 11:21:33 AM

Quote

France's Constitutional Council on Friday approved an unpopular plan to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64, in a victory for President Emmanuel Macron after three months of mass protests over the legislation that have damaged his leadership.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/france-retirement-age-raise-64-approved-constitutional-council/

This so-called measure has several benefits and drawbacks. The elder employees can benefit from their years of experience if they are retained on the job for longer, which is one advantage. The drawback of this is that many workplaces will report low performance because there is an inverse relationship between a person's success at work and their deterioration in cognitive and physical capacities.

Regardless, what I think is that the government shouldn't shove it down the throat of people. Workers who are approaching retirement age should be given a choice after appraisal to keep working or retire.

What sense does this make? Would you agree or disagree?

I think this issue is much larger than just this. This issue is more about how will these changes shape the economy of this country. Because if you see the burden of payments to be made to retired personnel has eat up a lot of GDP. This has to be paid by the people eventually and therefore this additional 2 years will help government cover that. Not to forget the most important aspect that as less number of people retire there would be less opportunities available for the youth as well.

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I think it's still depends, there's a lot of workers in a retirement age and still contributing a lot in a company which makes them the foundation. By that it you can't just simply change their role or else it would impact the company's economy. It's the retiring people's choice if they'd still want to contribute or not, some of them doesn't really afford to lose the job as their source of money for their needs, maybe if they have the savings or investment that could help them to retire without worrying about the financial needs.

We also need to think of new graduates for youngster. They also have the potential and skills that suit for some jobs. But due to low hiring rate they can't apply to jobs. In the end it's still up to them. If the company doesn't approve retiring age then they can't do anything about it as the company principle.

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Quote from: mvdheuvel1983 on April 22, 2023, 11:21:33 AM

Quote

France's Constitutional Council on Friday approved an unpopular plan to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64, in a victory for President Emmanuel Macron after three months of mass protests over the legislation that have damaged his leadership.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/france-retirement-age-raise-64-approved-constitutional-council/

This so-called measure has several benefits and drawbacks. The elder employees can benefit from their years of experience if they are retained on the job for longer, which is one advantage. The drawback of this is that many workplaces will report low performance because there is an inverse relationship between a person's success at work and their deterioration in cognitive and physical capacities.

Regardless, what I think is that the government shouldn't shove it down the throat of people. Workers who are approaching retirement age should be given a choice after appraisal to keep working or retire.

What sense does this make? Would you agree or disagree?

Age doesn't matter as long the individual is having the skills to complete the jobs given to them but with the current system we have age limit for retirement and it varies from one country to another but I see this only applies to government jobs because a private company can fire an employee at anytime if they want because they want more productivity at less cost.

I would say just give them the salary and get them retire as early as possible because the youngster can be more helpful in many ways but to the core experience matters too.

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Quote from: DrBeer on April 23, 2023, 04:25:36 AM

It seems to me that there should be some kind of compromise - a person PAYS TAXES FOR ALL LIFE. And there should be some kind of agreement where the conditions cannot be changed. If the state takes money from you in the form of taxes and uses it ineptly, which leads to distortions in the economy, then you should not violate the retirement period, but look for solutions, but not at the expense of those who have already paid, and counted on pension payments in a certain age. Then the taxpayer should also have a mechanism for reviewing relations. For example - you raised the retirement age by 10% - give me back 10% of all taxes I paid, plus the interest rate for using my money for this period, which I counted on but was deceived.

While this seems fair, they're not going to give you back anything. It's the government that we're talking about. They can only take and whatever they "give" is their way of buying votes.
If they're mismanaging the retirement money they shouldn't put the blame on people, especially those older ones who worked for more than 20 years, just to find out they're going to have to work much more than they thought to get what was promised. They should make the change gradually, with the ones closest to retirement not having to take the burden.
It would've been best if the retirement was a choice. You retire at whatever age you like and that age decides the amount of money you'll receive as pension.

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To be honest, I don't understand what's the big deal between 62 and 64 for such protests (that wouldn't happen in my country), but IMO Macron shouldn't have angered them so much and should not have pushed through when people are so much against it (it's not democratic, after all). I've watched a video about the history of French pension protests, and apparently it's a very hot topic for the French. Something more subtle should've been done (like increasing the work years a bit but not the pension age, for example), IMO, and with better explanations to the public to ensure they're not as angry. They've forced the bill without the vote on a Constitutional technicality, which sounds very shady.

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Quote from: mvdheuvel1983 on April 22, 2023, 11:21:33 AM

Quote

France's Constitutional Council on Friday approved an unpopular plan to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64, in a victory for President Emmanuel Macron after three months of mass protests over the legislation that have damaged his leadership.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/france-retirement-age-raise-64-approved-constitutional-council/

This so-called measure has several benefits and drawbacks. The elder employees can benefit from their years of experience if they are retained on the job for longer, which is one advantage. The drawback of this is that many workplaces will report low performance because there is an inverse relationship between a person's success at work and their deterioration in cognitive and physical capacities.

Regardless, what I think is that the government shouldn't shove it down the throat of people. Workers who are approaching retirement age should be given a choice after appraisal to keep working or retire.

The only drawback that I see for that constitution is that the younger generation will have to wait longer to get positions in companies where there are more elderly people are employed and since now the retirement age is increased, there will be two extra years for the companies to have more open positions to hire younger people.

Physical capacities can be a drawback too, you are right about that, but I think that's not the case with most people these days. Someone in their 60s should still be good enough to work with no physical issues.

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Quote from: Twentyonepaylots on April 23, 2023, 09:15:06 AM

Quote from: kingvirtus09 on April 23, 2023, 08:14:15 AM

Here I will say that this is just a bit of reality based on what I have seen from my relatives, They retired after completing 60yrs of service in the government, let's say that they will get a large retirement pay, and let's say that they will set up a business and house depending on the payment to be received in retirement. I think they will not be able to enjoy whatever business or property they buy because they are old. But anyway, of course it's their choice and we have no rights to say that their decision is wrong.

This is also true in our country as most people really don't have that choice to retire early since it is really hard to earn and save consistently in this kind of economy. But, I think, it takes good planning and discipline towards ourselves that would let us have a choice on retirement age. But, the sad reality for majority is that they have no choice but to work their whole life since financial planning isn't the strong suit of majority here leaving them no plans for things like retirement.

Solution is making use of the retirement fee, efficiently and wisely. Invest it to a business which has low risk such as grocery store and such, in order to keep the flow of money going. Depending on the money to be earned from retirement would end up in a mess for sure especially if it is not the retired employee who would make use of it; therefore that won't be sufficient. But if things will be used with plans and restrictions, a huge amount could be enough to generate another income. But regarding early retirement, indeed mist of the people have no choice but to continue working oneself until that ceiling age unless they would be able to save money during their days as an employee to achieve esrly retirement.

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Quote from: mvdheuvel1983 on April 22, 2023, 11:21:33 AM

This so-called measure has several benefits and drawbacks. The elder employees can benefit from their years of experience if they are retained on the job for longer, which is one advantage. The drawback of this is that many workplaces will report low performance because there is an inverse relationship between a person's success at work and their deterioration in cognitive and physical capacities.

Regardless, what I think is that the government shouldn't shove it down the throat of people. Workers who are approaching retirement age should be given a choice after appraisal to keep working or retire.

What sense does this make? Would you agree or disagree?

AFAIK, that is not the main advantage or disadvantage of the age retirement raise. Macron's rationale for the reform is that it's necessary to raise the pension age due to the unbalanced ratio between the worker and the pensioner -- since the pension funds circling from both of those funds. So the benefit/drawback you have mentioned missing their points about the reform and the protest.

It has something to do with the pension system that was built around France, which I did know fully aware of, so I resist to talks about it further. Besides, I believe the protest is also ignited by other causes, not a sole pension age reform.

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Quote from: kingvirtus09 on April 23, 2023, 08:14:15 AM

Here I will say that this is just a bit of reality based on what I have seen from my relatives, They retired after completing 60yrs of service in the government, let's say that they will get a large retirement pay, and let's say that they will set up a business and house depending on the payment to be received in retirement. I think they will not be able to enjoy whatever business or property they buy because they are old. But anyway, of course it's their choice and we have no rights to say that their decision is wrong.

This is also true in our country as most people really don't have that choice to retire early since it is really hard to earn and save consistently in this kind of economy. But, I think, it takes good planning and discipline towards ourselves that would let us have a choice on retirement age. But, the sad reality for majority is that they have no choice but to work their whole life since financial planning isn't the strong suit of majority here leaving them no plans for things like retirement.

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Here I will say that this is just a bit of reality based on what I have seen from my relatives, They retired after completing 60yrs of service in the government, let's say that they will get a large retirement pay, and let's say that they will set up a business and house depending on the payment to be received in retirement. I think they will not be able to enjoy whatever business or property they buy because they are old. But anyway, of course it's their choice and we have no rights to say that their decision is wrong.

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As long as older employees can still contribute to the company or office, it won't be a problem and the performance of those people can still be maintained properly. Maybe giving older people the opportunity to work can be more useful for them in preparing for retirement.

But if older employees feel that their performance has decreased considerably, they should immediately ask for early retirement. That will not interfere with the performance of the company or office. This will help them leave their work routine and enjoy their old days soon.

But most people, especially people entering retirement, don't think about this and instead want to get a higher position because there will be a raise for them. And if they retire in a higher position, their pension will also be bigger than those in a lower position. Maybe this will become the awareness of everyone, especially people who have entered retirement age, just to retire rather than burden their company or office.

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