Topic: Riots after Death of Man in Minneapolis Police Custody - page 9. (Read 4455 times)

1. Nope.  Never said that. I guess English wasn't a good subject for you.  Try reading the WORDS again.  I said a criminal with 10 arrests is 10x more likely to encounter a bad cop than a criminal who was arrested once.
  I've never justified the unlawful death of Floyd.  But you seem blind to basic facts, so wrongfully opine away fella.  

2. I have 2 decades of training, education, and experience with excited delirium and positional asphyxiation. No one here has ever heard those words before this Floyd case. I knew it the first time I saw the video. Been there, done that. And, I'll go so far as to say, Chauvin wasn't the primary cause for positional asphyxiation, he's secondary. The primary cause will be the cop that was on Floyd's back, preventing the rise and fall of Floyd's chest cavity.    You can offer dissenting opinion now, or put this in your back pocket and get back to me after trial.


And, I'll be so bold as to add..... go ahead and protest Minneapolis Police policy all you want. Those idiots still had the choke hold as an approved Use of Force technique.  Most every other department in the US removed that policy decades ago for the exact reason of this entire subject.

Still not sure how Floyd being a longtime criminal justifies the clearly excessive use of force that led to his death. You're saying that not only was Floyd's previous crimes (or current one of passing a fake $20) grounds for the death penalty but the cop had the right to act as executioner? If not, what are you saying exactly? Think about it.


Okay and seeing as how you are not a medical examiner you aren't a credible source when it comes to speculating upon his cause of death.

It's not a "different perspective" -- its just a broader range of data. It also includes a large number of people who tested positive for alcohol (32%) which could very well be weighing down the average concentration of fentanyl in those who died, as that is often a lethal combination of drugs. The study I quoted is more relevant as it doesn't include those with alcohol in their systems.


Actually the first autopsy report doesn't state that at all. The title is "CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION." You can argue that fentanyl played a role in his death, but you're on your own here. So actually it is your "medical take."

It also says 10-20 ng/mL is the suggested range for anaesthesia.

"Poly-substance use" in this case most likely means adding fentanyl to other nervous system depressants, of which meth is not one. Here's a more specific study that determined the mean concentration of fentanyl in multi-drug overdose deaths was 26.4 ng/ml.

Despite the ubiquitous presence of multiple drugs in these decedents, the effects of fentanyl
were evidently so strong that there were no statistical differences in the fentanyl level (mean
and standard deviation) with or without the presence of these co-intoxicants. The range of
fentanyl levels was wide, from 0.75 to 113.00 ng/mL, with an average of 9.96 ng/mL.

Nevertheless, the mean and range of fentanyl levels when fentanyl was the only drug found in
toxicology were statistically the same as the mean and range for the cases where fentanyl was
only one of several synergistic co-intoxicants. This suggests that fentanyl presence alone seems
to be sufficient to cause death.

Fentanyl 11 ng/mL - clearly in a safe range

...

I would be willing to bet the officers will be found not guilty because of who is prosecuting the case, Keith Ellison. This is someone who allegedly beat his girlfriend, and there is evidence to support this. I also believe him to be corrupt, and would not be surprised if he threw the case for political benefit.

If Floyd has > the OD dose of multiple drugs when he died, I would have serious doubt as to how much Chauvin's actions contributed to Floyd's death. I also have concerns about overcharging the officers, for political purposes.

Interesting article that I read examining the incident a bit more closely - https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911

TL;DR - Floyd was resisting and refusing to get in the police car probably because he was in an excited delirious state (ExDS), not because he was claustrophobic. There were a range of drugs in his system, including a deadly dose of fentanyl (11 ng/mL with average concentration being 10 ng/mL in an overdose). This explains why Floyd was acting so erratic and also why Derek Chauvin, a 19 year vet of the police department with military training and 4 years of military experience would seemingly do something stupid enough to have Floyd in a neck restraint for so long. Apparently it tends to be department policy to have anyone in a delirious state under full restraint until paramedics arrive on scene until they can inject the patient with loads of ketamine to calm them down.

The article also explores a few instances where people experiencing ExDS tend to die regardless of the restraint they're put in due to drugs and underlying conditions playing a role. The prosecution might try to argue that ExDS isn't a recognized condition by the American Medical Association but being in a delirious tends to have the same sorts of physical signs (agitation, aggression, reduced pain sensitivity, ect.)

Interesting article that I read examining the incident a bit more closely - https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911

TL;DR - Floyd was resisting and refusing to get in the police car probably because he was in an excited delirious state (ExDS), not because he was claustrophobic. There were a range of drugs in his system, including a deadly dose of fentanyl (11 ng/mL with average concentration being 10 ng/mL in an overdose). This explains why Floyd was acting so erratic and also why Derek Chauvin, a 19 year vet of the police department with military training and 4 years of military experience would seemingly do something stupid enough to have Floyd in a neck restraint for so long. Apparently it tends to be department policy to have anyone in a delirious state under full restraint until paramedics arrive on scene until they can inject the patient with loads of ketamine to calm them down.

The article also explores a few instances where people experiencing ExDS tend to die regardless of the restraint they're put in due to drugs and underlying conditions playing a role. The prosecution might try to argue that ExDS isn't a recognized condition by the American Medical Association but being in a delirious tends to have the same sorts of physical signs (agitation, aggression, reduced pain sensitivity, ect.)

Once handcuffed, Mr. Floyd became compliant and walked with Officer Lane to the sidewalk and sat on the
ground at Officer Lane’s direction. In a conversation that lasted just under two minutes, Officer Lang asked
Mr. Floyd for his name and identification. Officer Lane asked Mr. Lloyd if he was “on anything” and
explained that he was arresting Mr. Lloyd for passing counterfeit currency.

Once hand cuffed, Mr. Floyd walked with Lane to the sidewalk and sat on the ground at Lane’s direction.
When Mr. Floyd sat down he said “thank you man” and was calm.  In a conversation that lasted just under
two minutes, Lane asked Mr. Floyd for his name and identification. Lane asked Mr. Lloyd if he was "on
anything" and noted there was foam at the edges of his mouth.  Lane explained that he was arresting Mr.
Floyd for passing counterfeit currency.

While Officer Kueng was speaking with the front seat passenger, Officer Lane ordered Mr. Floyd out of the
car, put his hands on Mr. Floyd, and pulled him out of the car. Officer Lane handcuffed Mr. Floyd. Mr. Floyd
actively resisted being handcuffed.

While Officer Kueng was speaking with the front seat passenger, Lane ordered Mr. Floyd out of the car, put
his hands on Mr. Floyd, and pulled him out of the car. Lane handcuffed Mr. Floyd.

Officers Kueng and Lane stood Mr. Floyd up and attempted to walk Mr. Floyd to their squad car (MPD 320)
at 8:14 p.m. Mr. Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic.

As the officers tried to put Mr. Floyd in their squad car, Mr. Floyd stiffened up and fell to the ground.  Mr.
Floyd told the officers that he was not resisting but did not want to get in the back seat and was
claustrophobic.

My point is I think you should read the criminal complaint I linked.  It doesn't make the picture perfectly clear, but he was described as calm and polite after being handcuffed.  Then when they went to put him in the car he explicitly said he wasn't resisting, he was claustrophobic, and he couldn't breath - then he stiffened up and just went down.  The rest is clear from the video.

Go on....

Waiting for the point.

But I think your missing mine or are trying to deflect.

Floyd was unlawfully killed while being arrested. I've never contested that.
But if you look at my comment which you quoted, I said Floyd was a criminal.
What are the odds of a criminal being killed by police vs a non-criminal...... and how do you think those odds exponentially increase with the longer you engage in criminal activity?  I think Floyd demonstrated two decades of criminal behavior, maybe 10 arrests.  Wouldn't he be 10x more likely to have a bad police interaction as someone who only got arrested once?

It describes the police interaction...

It describes the police interaction...

What does that Affidavit have to do with my comment? 

Seems like he had a drug problem from 1996-2007.  Got like 3 years for a 4 separate possession of <1g of cocaine charges, a few petty thefts that got him a few weeks, and then in 2007 armed robbery got him 5 years.

He got out in 2011 and had been holding down a steady job for a while until he was laid off in early spring.  My guess is he relapsed.

Did you read the charging documents?  Because it doesn't seem like you did. http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12949-TT/ThaoComplaint06032020.pdf

But to keep this thread on topic... I'd suggest we talk about how big of a criminal Floyd was, and what that did do increase his odds of having a police interaction not go his way.

Where was racism disproved? Are you saying that slavery and jim crow were not based on race?  I honestly do not understand what you mean.

  It's really getting funny how hypocritical the left is... point the finger... point the finger, and everyone looks over there. They pay no attention to what you are doing, just what you point at.
   Implicit racism, institutional racism, systemic racism, this racism, that racism..... they come out with a new type of racism whenever they run out of the last one.

  They keep talking in a circle, but always hit on one point....... poverty.   Now, in the Democrats eyes (yes, this is all political now), the poverty is caused by racism. (Look over there). Whatever type of racism they attribute it to is always disproved, so they'll create a new type of racism next election cycle.  But the poverty is actually caused by Liberal Democrat policies, in Democrat controlled cities, in Democrat controlled states.
    They'll show you propaganda films of black kids being unable to succeed because they couldn't go to a good rich school 2 blocks away because of imaginary lines. But when they'll leave out the part of school funding, and increased funding to poorer schools had ZERO effect. It's proven that throwing money at poverty doesnt work, it just creates dependency, and that's what the Democrats want.
    We see higher crime rates among the poor in every race. The black community fears racism, and when you can control someone's fear, you control them.  Just like their Democratic President LBJ said, they'll keep them voting Democrat for 200 years. The poor communities are being kept poor intentionally. The Democrats give the poor free money, free housing, free food. The poor have literally zero incentive to work, better their lives, or leave their free accommodations. And thats how the Democrats want it.
   And what' the next best voter base they can manipulate?  The young and naive. Shove propaganda down the throats of the young naive kids with feelings via Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and you can make someone born less than two decades ago think they are guilty for something that happened two centuries ago.

  Some of us have been on this earth long enough to see this happen EVERY election cycle. Theres a routine. Theres a pattern.

   But do not fret.... there is a cure for racism. And the Democrats have already found it. It's OPEN BORDERS.  They've already done studies on the Latino vs Black birth rates in the US. The black birth relate is dropping, and the Latino birth rate is rising. Open borders can expedite their plan, and once they feel they can manipulate the larger Latino vote, you will see the switch happen. All of a sudden, you'll see the political battle cry switch from black racism to Latino something. Racism will have been cured.

   Have you not noticed already, the change in the narrative from the last election cycle?   4 years ago, it was just RACISM, RACISM.   That didnt work, so now they want to scream it louder, come up with systemic racism, oh, and this time lets throw in some white supremacy to top it off.   Yes, one talking head in this thread actually called Candice Owes a white supremacist.  

On topic..... George Floyd was a career criminal with a much higher probability of dying while committing crime, than a non-criminal.  

You're confusing statues with books.

These monuments were there to remember history, not to idolize it. Those that do not learn history are doomed to repeat it, and that is the point. Before history can be repeated, you must first erase it so that people can forget, so the old playbooks can be dug up and used again.