Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 362. (Read 78223 times)

I think there is big difference between Ukrainian refugees and refugees from Africa and Middle East. Many of these refugees aren't running from war. They are just looking for better life in Europe, trying to reach Germany or France and live from benefits there. While most of refugees from Ukraine is women with children beceause man from 18 to 60 years aren't allowed to leave country.

Ok, Poland and Baltic states is NATO members for two decades, but they never had nuclear weapons isn their country. Actually, Kaliningrad is even surounded by NATO countries. How Ukraine as NATO member would be different? These actions of Russia have pushed Moldova and Georgia to join EU, Finland and Sweden considering to join NATO. Does it means that Putin will have to start war against them?
And offcourse, Zelensky is responsible for everything, definitely not Putin. I'll just tell you that Ukraine want to join EU and NATO long time before Zelensky become president.
And please don't bring USA card here because I haven't saw someone justifying what their did.

I guess this is good news.
https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/denmark-likely-exclude-ukrainians-jewellery-law

On top of that, I've also read that Russians are fleeing to Finland due to fear of Putin implementing requiring citizens to enlist the army and go to war against Ukraine. I didn't check the validity of the source, but it doesn't sound impossible.

I had also seen a few protests, during the first days of the invasion, but haven't seen anything similar since then. First of all, Russia has been banned from all major social media, while Putin of course isn't going to announce that there are protests against the ongoing war.

I think Putin's apologists will soon have something else to worry about. It looks like protests in Russian cities are gaining intensity, despite beatings and arrests by the police. Obviously pro-Putin media isn't gonna report on it, and other outlets have been banned or voluntarily packed up due to new censorship laws, but there is still Telegram and other apps.

Holding cells are filling up so I'm guessing shooting at crowds would be the next step.

Russia isn't saying "so can we", they are already doing it. Go grab your AK-47 and stop them if you can.



I don't think so too. When was the last time you checked a world map? Do you see the neighbors of France and UK?



I didn't. Can you tell me though, where were the sanctions against USA when they invaded Iraq and Libya? Are you justifying the genocide made by the US?


That's exactly how the US operates.

The good old "they did it so can we" argument. Imagine this being used in a murder defense. Your honor, I killed my wife, but so did Pistorius!
They have nukes so they can do what they want. Really? The UK and France also have nukes, does that mean they have the right to kill civilians in neighboring countries? I don't think so.
Don't try to justify this genocide with weak arguments.


You're comparing the simple right of choice that Zelensky is exercising with the right to murder. Don't you see the difference? It's like killing someone because he chose to be friends with a group of junkies or gays, or skinheads, or change his faith. You can comment on his actions, condemn them, cut ties with him, remove your embassy, stop trading, whatever, but you have no right to kill over this.

Evacuation of Ukraine's Mariupol fails again, stranding civilians under siege the city council said in a statement.

There you have it, bunch of he said, she said BS. But ultimately the city council said "It is extremely dangerous to take people out under such conditions,"...thats why they need to stay inside the besieged city for the main assault, you know that way it wont be dangerous for them.  
Keeping civilians inside the city about to be attacked, out of concern for civilians safety. War, war is hell.

Edit: Thats the lives of 200.000 innocent civilians they're talking about evacuating an estimated 200,000 people out of the city came to a halt.

All things been equal Ukraine should just do the needful needed to end this war, cause in my own view, Ukraine is been used as a sacrificial lamp for the NATO and USA. If not, hey having they responded proactively rather than just with sanctions and delivery of weapons and tanks to Ukraine?

Right no significance to operation in Afghanistan which didn't overthrow Taliban, and US didn't put in its own puppet regime, which was also overthrown, and now the world once again back to recognizing Taliban as the governing body in Afghanistan? And operation in Iraq didn't overthrow Sadam? Operation in Lybia didn't overthrow Gaddafi? Assad in Syria and Maduro in Venezuelan (holding on so far). If anything overthrowing governments to take over or install your own friendly/puppet government seems to be the main purpose of every conflict after WW2. The cause of every war is never honestly made, no surprise there either. And I'm not even going to address calling the other side "intellectual impotent", and "incapable of critical thinking". Dehumanizing opponent is as old as war itself, and why Russia went with the whole denazification angle.

History judges "scariness" of wars by casualties, that's why UN reports of civilians killed is so important and one of few pieces of information that currently can be trusted.

I'm sorry to say this, but this war was already over when it started, the only unknowns now are how many casualties there will be, and whether Putins regime will be able to survive this. To limit the former any fuckery with Red Cross should be condemned by everyone no questions, as for the latter, we're currently seeing unprecedented global campaign to form "hearts and minds" of the population.

Of course it's justified, Putin never actually stopped making threats and provoking Ukraine, this current situation was foreseeable for the past decade at least, especially after the annexation of Crimea to Russia.

Certainly, invading a country isn't justifiable by any means, while Putin's threats are definitely real and concerning. There needs to be a stop to his madness, but I don't see it happening.

I do not underestimate the significance of what happened in those situations. And I'm not one to cover such horrific events as "special operations" and the like. The difference is that the war in Ukraine was started to overthrow the legitimately elected government. To change it to the one that would suit Russia, and which would not actually be the government, but would simply be an executor of orders from Moscow. The war was launched to wipe Ukraine off the map as a state. The war has begun because Russia does not consider Ukrainians an independent nation that is different from them, and is trying to convince the whole world about that. Although there is a big difference between us. Even the causes of the war are not honestly named. Russia stubbornly persuaded its own population that this is a "special operation in the Donbass", and the goal declared - "demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine."

The difference is that this is a war on two fronts - not only against Ukrainians, but also against Russians, who for decades have been made intellectual impotent, who only consume information from television and are incapable of critical thinking. And it is still unknown which of these wars is scarier and more dangerous. Ukrainians are fighting now. Can the same be said about the Russians?

I don't support anyone.

I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the west. Any sanctions on Russia by the west is simply bullshit. I am now reading news that the western governments are seizing the Russian properties. What happened to the right to own property^[1] which btw is a human right?

The west is free to invade any country they see fit, have the right to steal and kill but when some other country does the same thing suddenly they go apeshit. Here is Russia doing it in your face and you can't do anything other than banning Disney in Russia. Get mad.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_property

You are correct, whataboutism, and thus we are now at the "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law" impasse. First mover advantage, whats done is done now just need to make sure no one else can follow and do the same because apparently what we did was so wrong but it benefited us greatly and got us to where we are now.

Ah, good old Russia is bad, but the U.S. is even worse card.
Does this have any relevance to the current situation? This is not a discussion of the U.S. invasion of Iraq.


Do you mean other than the UK, Australia, Spain, and Poland as members of the Coalition forces? But again, irrelevant to the current discussion.


So you literally support "the strongest bully in the playground" argument?

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That would be true if Ukraine invaded Russia, not the other way around.


"Two wrongs don't make a right!"

no no no. Completely different, it wasn't a war, US just had an operation to bring freedom to Iraq which ended great with cookies and smiles. OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom) led by the United States of America (Operation Iraqi Freedom), United Kingdom (Operation Telic), Australia, Spain and Poland, responsible for conducting and handling military operations. And blockade of sovereign country of Cuba wasnt a blockade but just a quarantine also totally legal because reasons... Plus their people were "different" so our population didn't care for them as much. NATO bombing of Yugoslavia without the UN's approval was just an Operation Noble Anvil! And dont get me started on the Operation Enduring Freedom Afghanis endured so much freedom they couldn't endure anymore. Thought we already covered all of this, are we now all clear on the history, and how this operation is completely different and unprecedented because there are casualties? /s

https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/middle-east/operation-iraqi-freedom.html

You're making the claim, you should substantiate. Is that not how it works?


You seem to be a bit confused as to who's surrounding those two cities. Hint: it ain't Ukrainians.

No, I don’t see it. Because I don’t defend US in the Iraq situation. I simply tell about the current situation in my country. And it doesn’t become less painful and wrong if you make some similar examples with other conflicts.

Ah the good old independence card.

What right the US had when they decided to invade Iraq? Wasn't Iraq independent enough for your taste? See? This shit cuts both ways. (Which countries sanctioned the US for this btw? None?)

I'll tell you what rights... Russia got nukes. Lots of it. They don't want their neighboring countries to have the same nukes.


In the light of same situation one could say Putin has the right to invade Ukraine.


Wasn't Iraq a sovereign nation? Where are the sanctions against the US?

Civilian casualties can be relatively low when comparing them to any other similar conflict (although I have questions about what similar conflicts you are referring to, because in the 21st century there seems to have been no full-scale open invasion to another sovereign country), because most of the civilian population has created a territorial defense that protects the settlements, and thus they are no longer actually civilians.

By the way, the main sourse of mine are my eyes. Being where the war is going on is not the same as reading about it in the media. So yes, the source is really silly, because this whole war is based on the stupidity of people who are unable to understand that other people want to live without their intervention.

In light of the current situation, Ukraine's desire to join NATO is clearly justified. Ukraine was concerned about Russian aggression, especially after the Crimea, and wanted protection. NATO membership became a shared goal for the majority of Ukrainians after Russia's military occupation of Crimea. Who is Putin to deny them that right?

Regardless of how you spin it, aggression against a sovereign state with a legally elected government can never be justified. No matter what the issue, Ukraine's sovereignty and independence must be respected by all powers. Putin is a war criminal and it is time for Western countries to stand up to this aggression.