Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 377.

Gyfts

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Quote from: cornhodlr on February 24, 2022, 09:15:55 AM

No bozo,I didn't suggest Ukraine should give up its whole territory.Once we refused to listen to the russians and the ukrainian government kept shelling the eastern breakaway regions it gave putin the excuse he needed justify what he is doing now.Negotiating is the only way out of this because russia will roll ukraine over if they don't and not you nor I can do anything about it.Stop being so fucking arrogant.

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1496702809097527297

Tulsi Gabbard (democratic politician from United States) had a similar opinion - resolution through diplomacy. It simply does not take into account the demands Putin would want.

I too was one part of the crowd thinking Russian aggression could have been stopped with diplomacy just recently...and then Putin launches a military invasion with bombings and missile strikes. That ship has sailed. My initial thinking was an invasion could be pushed off by making concessions about NATO, and then Putin would move the goal posts later and demand more. Though now it is clear, you do not negotiate with unstable regimes, it does not work out well. See North Korea and Iran and where the U.S. has taken that diplomacy - no where. Russia will roll through Ukraine, you're right, but perhaps some resistance from Ukraine would be better than conceding their entire country to a murderous dictator that wants to see the USSR rise again.

Side note - what's particularly interesting is the repeated pattern of giving up nuclear weapons and than proceeding to be invaded because there is no way to defend a nation without weapons of mass destruction and mutually assured destruction. Some of those Soviet era nukes Ukraine had in the 90's would have been a great deterrent.

Cnut237

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Quote from: suchmoon on February 24, 2022, 08:54:51 AM

an erroneous assumption (or just plain trollfuckery) that Putin is a rational person who can be negotiated with. He isn't and he can't

I've been wrong about Putin (including in this very thread!), so am happy to be wrong again... I'd certainly agree that he can't be negotiated with, or at least not very successfully, but for me one of the scariest things about him is that he seems very rational. It may be my misunderstanding based on his media persona and a lazy stereotype of the cold, calculating Russian, but I don't think this invasion is some hot-headed emotional action. I think he's assessed all the variables, and is confident that he will come out of this stronger than when he went in.

Everything seems to have fallen into place for him (or maybe he has been carefully ~~manouevreing~~ ~~maneuovering~~ orchestrating it all). He knows that the US won't send troops in. He has China on-side. And Russia isn't particularly dependent on the West for anything, and any sanctions that would really hurt (e.g. on gas or oil) would arguably hurt the West more by pushing up global prices.

I'm interested to find out if he seems rational to anyone else, or if it's just me seeing something that isn't there.

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Time to cut off the SWIFT access may be?

Ultegra134

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Quote from: Mometaskers on February 24, 2022, 01:42:31 PM

And here we're starting to see what could be the beginning of WW3. Ukraine's mistake was not joining NATO soon enough, now it can't be guaranteed anything.

I'm glad no one I've seen online so far is buying the "peacekeeping" bullshit. We all knew this is gonna happen after they invaded and annexed Crimea. Putin saw the West in disarray (thank you Rona) and struck. If you think about it, this is probably his last best chance to capture any significant amount of land before things go back to "normal".

NATO isn't going to step in, in fears of causing a larger scale attack towards other NATO countries. Russia's invasion isn't justifiable, more than 50 deaths have already been recorded, with multiple injuries. To be honest, I didn't expect Putin to go that far, however, it wasn't unexpected, since it has already happened in the past, with Crimea in 2014.

Unfortunately, I don't see Putin stopping anytime soon, this war will have serious consequences not only in human lives, but also financial for the whole European countries.

Smartvirus

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This Russian Inavsion of Ukraine and the forth coming war about it is getting out of hand and really serious. I don't know what is really the cause but, attacking a nation unprovoked is seriously out of place and the threat form Russia is so real. Not only limited to Ukraine but also, to other nations that dares to assist in some ways. It feels like a propaganda to see how far they could go in tempting the world power and at most, Putin isn't blinking on the threats from international communities. Do we hope to see any resolution in this, rather than a war...!

Mometaskers

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And here we're starting to see what could be the beginning of WW3. Ukraine's mistake was not joining NATO soon enough, now it can't be guaranteed anything.

I'm glad no one I've seen online so far is buying the "peacekeeping" bullshit. We all knew this is gonna happen after they invaded and annexed Crimea. Putin saw the West in disarray (thank you Rona) and struck. If you think about it, this is probably his last best chance to capture any significant amount of land before things go back to "normal".

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suchmoon

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Quote from: cornhodlr on February 24, 2022, 09:15:55 AM

No bozo,I didn't suggest Ukraine should give up its whole territory.Once we refused to listen to the russians and the ukrainian government kept shelling the eastern breakaway regions it gave putin the excuse he needed justify what he is doing now.Negotiating is the only way out of this because russia will roll ukraine over if they don't and not you nor I can do anything about it.Stop being so fucking arrogant.

Putin is lying to you. He was amassing military on the border for months, long before whatever excuse he came up with to justify the invasion. All those things he kept saying (it's just a military exercise; they're moving back; it's peacekeeping; etc) - all lies. Sure there will be "negotiating", once he's done bombing and invading. Perhaps he'll create a puppet government to negotiate with, just to make it go smoother, because "nazis". Maybe even run a "referendum" on how much Ukrainians love him.

cornhodlr

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Quote from: suchmoon on February 24, 2022, 08:54:51 AM

Quote from: cornhodlr on February 24, 2022, 04:31:36 AM

We cannot take the moral high ground here because we completely ignored the Russians at the negotiating table.This is what allows Putin to use as the excuse to take action.We gave him this excuse because we were too arrogant to give any concessions.Instead we responded with flooding Ukraine with weapons ..and helmets.It is best the Ukrainians do the negotiating with Putin themselves because all our politicans are warmongers and are delighted to have this distraction in Ukraine deflecting from the shitshows happening in our own countries.

This absurd notion is based on an erroneous assumption (or just plain trollfuckery) that Putin is a rational person who can be negotiated with. He isn't and he can't, unless by "concessions" you mean that Ukraine should have just given up entirely and unconditionally. Even then he'd be executing people there just because he wants to (re his comments on "de-nazification").

No bozo,I didn't suggest Ukraine should give up its whole territory.Once we refused to listen to the russians and the ukrainian government kept shelling the eastern breakaway regions it gave putin the excuse he needed justify what he is doing now.Negotiating is the only way out of this because russia will roll ukraine over if they don't and not you nor I can do anything about it.Stop being so fucking arrogant.

suchmoon

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Quote from: cornhodlr on February 24, 2022, 04:31:36 AM

We cannot take the moral high ground here because we completely ignored the Russians at the negotiating table.This is what allows Putin to use as the excuse to take action.We gave him this excuse because we were too arrogant to give any concessions.Instead we responded with flooding Ukraine with weapons ..and helmets.It is best the Ukrainians do the negotiating with Putin themselves because all our politicans are warmongers and are delighted to have this distraction in Ukraine deflecting from the shitshows happening in our own countries.

This absurd notion is based on an erroneous assumption (or just plain trollfuckery) that Putin is a rational person who can be negotiated with. He isn't and he can't, unless by "concessions" you mean that Ukraine should have just given up entirely and unconditionally. Even then he'd be executing people there just because he wants to (re his comments on "de-nazification").

merchantofzeny

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Originally I was predicting they'd only invade areas that already have higher Russian populations under the "peacekeeping" pretense but considering the rather spineless reactions from Western governments, anything is possible now. They might as well just roll in straight into Kyiv.

On a different note, this must probably be the very reason for the sudden 180° on the stance towards Bitcoin.

paxmao

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Do not die for Putin

Examples: "I am not going to invade Ukraine". Then I declare that the bit of Ukraine I am going to invade is not Ukraine, thus all is as I said.
"This is just a military exercise in our border, it is just a coincidence that Ukraine is near", then the exercise becomes an attack.
"This is about the safety of Europe", and then I start a war in Europe.

I am sure you get the point. information provided by the now correctly called enemy, is not information.

Noson

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As the invasion is bound to occur and a possible war set to follow suit immediately, I strongly feel the Ukrainians will be at the losing end of this saga. Quite sad to express! The over ambitious, highly aggressive and ever dictatorial Putin may eventually have his way the end. Unless world leaders take up swift actions against Russia.

However, I'm not sure if sanctions may slow Putin down. I think Putin's administration has prepared a strategy for moments as these, hence his continuous advancement and looming full fledged invasion game plan.

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Quote from: OgNasty on February 24, 2022, 04:08:17 AM

I haven't read any death count numbers yet, but I assume with bombing comes casualties and citizens are rarely exempt from these sorts of actions.

Dozens of dead and injured have been reported in the Russian and Ukrainian media. Basically, they are talking about the military, but peaceful citizens of Ukraine also come under fire. It's all terrible.

cornhodlr

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We cannot take the moral high ground here because we completely ignored the Russians at the negotiating table.This is what allows Putin to use as the excuse to take action.We gave him this excuse because we were too arrogant to give any concessions.Instead we responded with flooding Ukraine with weapons ..and helmets.It is best the Ukrainians do the negotiating with Putin themselves because all our politicans are warmongers and are delighted to have this distraction in Ukraine deflecting from the shitshows happening in our own countries.

OgNasty

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Very sad that this is happening. It seemed like Putin was going to be willing to discuss the situation, but it seems that was all just buying time as he set up his invasion force. Knowing that a country like Russia, who should be setting an example on the world stage would act against seemingly the rest of the developed world so aggressively is disappointing. I hope that whatever this is turns out to be over quickly and Russia is penalized for years to come. I haven't read any death count numbers yet, but I assume with bombing comes casualties and citizens are rarely exempt from these sorts of actions. I will be keeping the people of Ukraine in my thoughts and praying that they are able to get beyond this mess without much loss of life.

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on February 23, 2022, 11:06:51 PM

There appear to be air strikes and/or bombings in Kiev.

Nothing much just a Putin doing operation in Ukraine.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: icopress on February 22, 2022, 03:03:35 PM

No matter what anyone says, there is only one scenario in which Russia dares to make this move, but the first step should be made by the EU and not Russia. A scenario in which the EU and the US at this very second will introduce the maximum possible package of sanctions, something like a sanction against North Korea. In the meantime, the EU and the US act with caution by introducing phased sanctions against Russia, Ukrainians have nothing to fear.

Russia supplies 11% of the world's oil and supplies much of Europe's natural gas. It is simply not possible to impose that level of sanctions against Russia.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on February 23, 2022, 02:37:23 AM

Maybe Paul Manafort will get called in to help a pro Russian candidate get elected to office in one of the Baltic states.

Maybe Putin should consider hiring Hunter Biden to get a favorable response to any Russian aggression in the region.

Quote from: TopTort777 on February 23, 2022, 03:37:54 AM

Quote from: Gyfts on February 22, 2022, 05:23:40 PM

Latvia and Lithuania are some of the countries that will be next.

Arent these countries under protection of NATO? Starting annexation, invasion, war will trigger massive war actions on the whole territory of Europe. And with the current weaponry, there will be no winner in this war.

I don't think Putin is daring enough to try to invade either country, or even position military forces in a way that might look like he is going to invade either country.

Russian troops know they can win a war against Ukraine. The same is not true with NATO. Trying to position itself to attack a county it cannot win may result in troops abandoning their posts in large numbers, which would threaten Putin's grip on power.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on February 23, 2022, 03:53:30 AM

Reality has little to do with the perception of team 'Lets go Brandon'. With a steady diet of right wing media anything Biden, and by extension in this case the West in general, does will be weak. And they're tip toeing up to the line of showing admiration openly for the way Putin gets things done. Trump has already signaled it's ok to admire Putins ways. He has for years, of course, but never while Putin was literally invading an ally unprovoked.

Putin never invaded any country while Trump was in office. He pretty much started getting his troops into position as soon as Biden was elected.

There appear to be air strikes and/or bombings in Kiev.

Gyfts

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Quote from: TwitchySeal on February 23, 2022, 06:18:15 PM

Apologize for what exactly? Being a member of NATO? Supporting allies? Having allies? Considering strengthening allies?

Being senile and bed ridden, and then botching a withdrawal from Afghanistan resulting in 13 US service members dying because Joe Biden decided to lie to the public about the power the Taliban had and how quickly Afghanistan would have fallen is weakness. Greenlighting Nord Stream 2 when the U.S. congress wanted sanctions last year is weakness. I notice you happened to ignore the Reutors source, so I suppose it is easy to see Joe Biden as a success when you merely stick your head in the sand at anything that might be perceived negatively. Joe Biden decided to become a Russian oil advocate and work against his party when they wanted to impose sanctions. Russian spy, perhaps?

Quote from: TwitchySeal on February 23, 2022, 06:18:15 PM

If it's so obvious to you how the Biden administration is dealing with Russia is wrong, what is an obviously not wrong way to handle it? How should Biden deal with a nuclear armed authoritarian invading a US ally.

See above. A competent monkey would do a better job as long as they took a hands-off approach and did nothing. I don't imagine you would be making excuses for Biden had Trump been in charge of this, or had Trump been responsible for getting US service members killed.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on February 23, 2022, 06:18:15 PM

Not following your logic. You think 'so many countries' don't care about Russian aggression because US sanctions do nothing...what do the effects of US sanctions have to do with whether or not a country cares about Russia aggression. Do you think if US sanctions would do something that would make them all the sudden care? It's like you heard 'Biden is weak, he can't stop Russia' and decided to whip up a nice word salad.

EU countries don't want the sanctions, they just want the oil. It is in their interest to ignore Russian aggression because they have things working their way - meaningless sanctions and oil/natural gas sources.

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Quote from: Gyfts on February 23, 2022, 04:46:58 PM

Unfortunately for the world, the US forces themselves into global affairs they can't handle. So the "Brandon" administration should actually apologize.

Apologize for what exactly? Being a member of NATO? Supporting allies? Having allies? Considering strengthening allies?

If it's so obvious to you how the Biden administration is dealing with Russia is wrong, what is an obviously not wrong way to handle it? How should Biden deal with a nuclear armed authoritarian invading a US ally.

Quote from: Gyfts on February 23, 2022, 04:46:58 PM

If you wonder why so many countries do not care about Russian aggression, it is because they understand U.S. sanctions will do nothing, and the control of natural resources Russia has is far too great. Surely Nord Stream 2 didn't help.

Not following your logic. You think 'so many countries' don't care about Russian aggression because US sanctions do nothing...what do the effects of US sanctions have to do with whether or not a country cares about Russia aggression. Do you think if US sanctions would do something that would make them all the sudden care? It's like you heard 'Biden is weak, he can't stop Russia' and decided to whip up a nice word salad.

Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 377. (Read 79424 times)