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Topic: Satoshi Nakamoto - 1,5 million Bitcoins - We need answers - page 8. (Read 52546 times)

donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
Even so, there are many early adopters who (at least claim to) have very little coins left.

Hehe. For some early adopters, "very little" might still be in the thousands, though.

I can understand some of them cashed in too early, though. Imagine you're a little short on cash and the bitcoin value just shot up 400% to USD 0.80!! I'd be tempted to sell, myself. I've been having a hard time holding on to my little stash myself at times.

This just emphasizes the point that being an early adopter, an being it successfully (holding on to the bitcoins), is not so easy, and these people can be envied, but it's not unfair in any way. We all had the same chance. Of course some luck was involved, too, but that's almost always the case. So don't bash the early adopters, they're the ones that got the stone rolling in the first place. Like someone once elaborated on in a TED talk: it's not the leader/inventor that is the most crucial person to the success of something, it's the first follower (showing a video of a guy standing up and starting to dance pertty stupidly, then another one following, then more people successively, until everybody dances). He argues that without the first follower, there wouldn't have been a party, and the leader would've looked like an idiot. I think it's true.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019

Yes: what does this have to do with the questions asked by OP?

In was in response to several comments to the OP addressing early adopters. My point being that every worthwhile endeavor has early adopters, all taking a risk, hoping it'll become profitable. You'll always have somebody wishing that they were on the ground floor before it went viral.

I stand behind my wiki posting.

Thanks for clearing that up. And I have to agree with you.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
I'm amazed that something like Bitcoin can survive in the wild, totally open source without being hacked to peices. The guy is clearly an absolute genius in the field of cryptology and macro economics, I bet even he can't believe this shit actually worked though.

Much respect to him, and I'm sure he's far too clever to let Bitcoin die or do anything to negatively affect the value of the currency when he's holding over a million coins.



Yeah, that bears remembering.

Kind of an aside here, but did any of you read the cryptography list discussions when he initially introduced the bitcoin protocol? Everyone was like "oh shit... neat... but how do you do X process?" and he was all like "just do it like this." Essentially he'd had the hard stuff done up, complete before he brought it to the public eye, which is very impressive. And his explanation? Something along the lines of "oh, it was just as easy to write the code to see if it would work than to prove it any other way..."

Anyway, who gives a fuck how much he/she/they own. I hate to be a downer here OP but this is newbie stuff that comes up over and over again. It's a bit boring.


Quote
I'm amazed that something like Bitcoin can survive in the wild, totally open source without being hacked to peices. The guy is clearly an absolute genius in the field of cryptology and macro economics, I bet even he can't believe this shit actually worked though.

Much respect to him, and I'm sure he's far too clever to let Bitcoin die or do anything to negatively affect the value of the currency when he's holding over a million coins.

+2 (for the post before the one I quoted)
+2 (for this post also) but like on Who's Line is it Anyway--The points don't matter.


Quote
I hate to be a downer here OP but this is newbie stuff that comes up over and over again. It's a bit boring.


If you visit the Newbie threads, you see a whole slew of them coming down the pike. A lot of them simply post, "Whitewash me! I have something very important to add to this or that conversation."

They can't wait to add their thoughts to the Bitcoin community.


hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
In my opinion, anybody who thinks 'Satoshi' didn't create Bitcoin with the intention (at least, in part) of getting rich, I think you're fooling yourself.  It's clearly built into the structure. 
Yet we haven't witnessed an intense development effort for such novel systems before or since Bitcoin. There were many different plans for a distributed currency (e.g. a distributed anonymous version of ripple), but only by a handful of people. In my experience, you just can't and don't work on such stuff if you intend to get rich. He must have imagined gaining wealth as a consequence of his success, but the reason the structure is built this way is definitely about success of the currency. As a consequence, people who believed in it got to have more coins. Even so, there are many early adopters who (at least claim to) have very little coins left.

This is probably closer to reality:
I bet even he can't believe this shit actually worked though.

What surprised me about molecular's analysis though is the amount of coins that were never moved. I wonder if that is the usual trend, or it shows a different behavioral pattern for first comers. Has anybody made a "the number of coins that haven't moved since" graph?
full member
Activity: 123
Merit: 101
I'm amazed that something like Bitcoin can survive in the wild, totally open source without being hacked to peices. The guy is clearly an absolute genius in the field of cryptology and macro economics, I bet even he can't believe this shit actually worked though.

Much respect to him, and I'm sure he's far too clever to let Bitcoin die or do anything to negatively affect the value of the currency when he's holding over a million coins.



Yeah, that bears remembering.

Kind of an aside here, but did any of you read the cryptography list discussions when he initially introduced the bitcoin protocol? Everyone was like "oh shit... neat... but how do you do X process?" and he was all like "just do it like this." Essentially he'd had the hard stuff done up, complete before he brought it to the public eye, which is very impressive. And his explanation? Something along the lines of "oh, it was just as easy to write the code to see if it would work than to prove it any other way..."

Anyway, who gives a fuck how much he/she/they own. I hate to be a downer here OP but this is newbie stuff that comes up over and over again. It's a bit boring.
sr. member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 250
I'm amazed that something like Bitcoin can survive in the wild, totally open source without being hacked to peices. The guy is clearly an absolute genius in the field of cryptology and macro economics, I bet even he can't believe this shit actually worked though.

Much respect to him, and I'm sure he's far too clever to let Bitcoin die or do anything to negatively affect the value of the currency when he's holding over a million coins.

legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Yes: what does this have to do with the questions asked by OP?

In was in response to several comments to the OP addressing early adopters. My point being that every worthwhile endeavor has early adopters, all taking a risk, hoping it'll become profitable. You'll always have somebody wishing that they were on the ground floor before it went viral.

I stand behind my wiki posting.
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1007
"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."
FWIW, I mined 10,000,000 ShitCoins before I took it public.

It never caught on

LOL
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1007
"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."
On my list of concerns, my worry over the personal assets of Satoshi is just slightly more important than what I'm going to make for dinner this evening.

If it does concern you, like the other poster said, go mine XICoin, for Satoshi probably has none of them! In fact, why don't all the communists get together and create Communacoin, they can ensure nobody has more than X% above anyone else, that the supply of them increase indefinitely (making everyone richer forever), that purchases will only be for "socially beneficial purposes," and all the evil, unfair free-market jerks won't get to own any at all!

In all seriousness, it would make no sense at all for Satoshi to step forward and disclose anything about himself. It is obscenely smart for him to have disappeared and here's hoping he lives out his days in peace, wealth, and comfort, reflecting upon the incredible invention he has bestowed upon mankind.

+1
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1147
The revolution will be monetized!
Nice work Molecular!

Although, it is also possible Satoshi owns no bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
In my opinion, anybody who thinks 'Satoshi' didn't create Bitcoin with the intention (at least, in part) of getting rich, I think you're fooling yourself.  It's clearly built into the structure.

At this point, it's in the hands of the community.  The OP's post is relevant because depending on how many BTC Satoshi owns, he can cash out at any time.  The stronger the community becomes, that gives Satoshi less incentive to cash out immediately.  If there are overwhelming signs of an absolute market crash, Satoshi is the one who can solidify it. 
aq
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
considering his genious design and superb execution, Satoshi deserves at least 3 million btc
if we assume that he owns the genesis block http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f and hence also owns the very address, we can all start donating, which apparently some people do already: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa
But it is still a long way to 3 million
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
probally owns a supercomputer that puts out a few PetaFLOPs

I'm pretty sure he doesn't. When you own >5% of any given currency, you don't need more. Also: Satoshi seems to be a sensible guy and one that knows when to retreat and let others take over. He's done his share well and got rewarded. Let's hope he changed the world with this.
legendary
Activity: 1099
Merit: 1000
considering his genius design and superb execution, Satoshi deserves at least 3 million btc
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
I did some more analysis on "2009 coins" using bitcoin-abe (thanks a lot, John Toby!):

I looked at mining profits 2009, using block_id <= 32485 (last block mined in 2009, at 2009-12-31 23:51:57) as condition. The overall mining profit was:

Quote

mysql> select sum(txout_value/1E8) from block_tx inner join block on block.block_id = block_tx.block_id inner join tx on block_tx.tx_id = tx.tx_id inner join txin on txin.tx_id=tx.tx_
id inner join txout on txout.tx_id = tx.tx_id left join txin txin2 on txin2.txout_id = txout.txout_id left join tx tx2 on tx2.tx_id=txin2.tx_id left join block_tx block_tx2 on block_tx2.tx_id=tx2.tx_id where txin.txout_id is null and block.block_id <= 32485;
+----------------------+
| sum(txout_value/1E8) |
+----------------------+
|           1624252.87 |
+----------------------+

1,624,252.87 BTC (2.87 BTC fees)

crosscheck: 1624250 BTC / 50 BTC/block = 32485 blocks, ok

Next I was interested in wether or not these mining profits where sold or not. This is too hard to determine from the data, so I resorted to determining wether they were moved to other addresses and if so, wether the respective transaction took place in 2009 or after 2009:


Quote

mysql> select case when txin2.txin_id is null then 'not moved' else case when block_tx2.block_id <= 32485 then 'moved i
n 2009' else 'moved after 2009' end end as move_status, sum(txout_value/1E8) from block_tx inner join block on block.bl
ock_id = block_tx.block_id inner join tx on block_tx.tx_id = tx.tx_id inner join txin on txin.tx_id=tx.tx_id inner join txout on txout.tx_id = tx.tx_id left join txin txin2 on txin2.txout_id = txout.txout_id left join tx tx2 on tx2.tx_id=txin2.tx_id left join block_tx block_tx2 on block_tx2.tx_id=tx2.tx_id where txin.txout_id is null and block.block_id <= 32485 group by move_status;
+------------------+----------------------+
| move_status      | sum(txout_value/1E8) |
+------------------+----------------------+
| moved after 2009 |            294800.15 |
| moved in 2009    |            137600.13 |
| not moved        |           1191852.59 |
+------------------+----------------------+

This likely means, that the majority of the coins mined in 2009 (73%, 1,191,852 BTC) are still in possession of the original miner (he might have given the coins to someone else by giving him the private keys. It's likely, though, that the recipient would've moved the coins to new addresses because otherwise he'd have to trust the sender to not use the keys).

Therefore I think we can safely assume that the people that mined the early coins in 2009 (likely "Satoshi Nakamoto and some friends") did not sell or otherwise give away the majority of these coins. The coins that were moved (27%) might also well be still in their possession. We can therefore state: Satoshi and friends have at miminum 1.2 Million BTC still at their disposal.

EDIT: this puts a lower bound to the answer of question 1: "How many Bitcoins in total does "Nakamoto" have?" (assuming "Nakamoto" means "Satoshi and friends"). Answer: at least 1.2 Million.
member
Activity: 73
Merit: 10
FWIW, Satoshi did make a point of it that he didn't start mining before everyone else had the chance to - by including a newspaper headline in the genesis block.

We were just reading the wrong lists  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1001
this is a very well thought out post with important questions,

because of this I feel it will never happen (serious inquiry) and most people will post garbage like "you have no right to know any of this"

+1

And

I predict this thtread will not end well
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
BitVapes.com
I fail to see the problem here. Bitcoin was visible in plain open sight since day 1. 99% of us was just too stupid to see it and become an early adopter. Stupidity has a price, and now we have to buy coins at a much higher price.

agreed.   I first saw bitcoin in late 2009 or early 2010 when looking for exchangers of other digital currencies like pecunix and liberty reserve.   I came across bitcoin-otc and was very interested, but I didn't see that bitcoins could be used for much.  I didn't dig deep enough, and I had I might have gotten more interested and involved at the time.  I didn't start taking a hard look at it until after it broke $1 parity, and didn't get my business started until just after then $30 high.    But we are all still early adopters, imo.   2/3rd of all bitcoins are still yet to be mined and circulated, and the entire bitcoin economy market cap is still only a tiny fraction of the global economy.  
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