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Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 387. (Read 845569 times)

legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
November 30, 2014, 06:36:32 AM

Why do you feel compelled to "prove yourself?"  I thought you'd feel compelled to prove your belief.


Probably because my 'belief' (as you say) is inextricably part of me. Proving myself and proving my 'belief' amounts to the same thing. You view your theory as a separate entity from yourself, I don't.
I don't change. I don't better myself. Instead I accept full responsibility for myself/the way I am/my 'belief'/my 'theory'.  Smiley




With all due respect, when one takes a position that essentially equates to "we can't really know anything absolutely" for whatever reason, it 'a priori' renders the position invalid.  


There are a few things I would like to say on this comment.

1) I've never said "we can't really know anything absolutely" In fact, I even said that it is possible. You've inferred this from my comments, even though I've specifically addressed this point. That conclusion came naturally for you because it is a defensive reflex.


Unfortunately such a theory can never come to exist, at least not in the sense you're alluding to. At best, you'll get the snake to eat it's own tail which is always acceptable assuming you're 100% innocently content with your theory of theories.

From this comment, it is clear that it is possible for one to "know anything/everything absolutely" as long as one is 100% happy with one's knowledge.


2) Humans' quest for 'absolute knowledge' is in direct contradiction with their way of life. One of the most sacred human motto is "To err is human." These simple words grant humanity the ability to forgive itself and forget its actions no matter how many mistakes, it makes. One of the implications of 'absolute knowledge' is that mistakes would become fatal.


3)Lastly, you don't seem to be aware of the duality of your own comment. You are effectively countering your own proposition.

---> You infer that I made an absolute statement.
---> You rebel against the absolute statement for being absolute.
---> The quest you're defending is an effort to reach exactly that: an absolute statement.  


it's fairly frustrating to be accused of "systematically" avoiding your points just after addressing your previous response point-by-point  Huh



How am I not correct in saying you addressed my points systematically when you yourself just confirmed that you addressed them "point-by-point"?
The only thing that could give this last part of your comment any meaning at all, is if you missed the fact that I actually used "missed/avoided/failed to understand" rather than just "avoided"


Ok gonna take a break now. Enjoy your Sunday!  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
November 30, 2014, 04:45:43 AM
@the joint Well I suppose this was to be expected. Although I never placed any such limit prior to the start of our conversation.
You've systematically missed/avoided/failed to understand every single one of the points I made.

Unfortunately, we're now back to these 2 comments I made earlier in the thread:

Proof exists for anyone who wishes to have it.
Proof is the succulent, seasonless, ever-present fruit hanging from the tree of knowledge. From newborns to centenarians, all are equally well-equipped to pluck it with ease  Cheesy


This limit only exists once you become aware of it. Attempts to contain this limit within a binding set of laws/definitions only lead to perpetual self-questioning and is not recommended lest you should go off on a tangent unbeknownst to yourself.



I do not believe in God and I do not believe in Science. And no, whatever word you come up with, to categorize someone making such a statement, does not encompass me.

The idea of God as a supreme being promotes the concept of "survival of the fittest". Science is the subtle art of restriction, nothing more. Science and religion are exactly the same.
A theory's only purpose is to exert control, whether it be over one's surroundings or other living beings. Any theory is by default impossible. Everything in the theorist's reality is of the same nature as the theorist: infinite. A theory seeks to maintain the theorist as an infinity while reducing everything around the theorist to lesser, apprehensible artifacts.
A proven theory appears to endow its wielder with power, however that is only an illusion as the theory does not truly apprehend the reality of the infinities around the theorist.
Regardless of how much of himself the theorist gives up for his theory, he is always aware of the inadequacy of his theory. With real power out of his reach, the theorist achieves his greatest trick when he is able to convince those around him that his theory is valid. As the newly formed bubble continues to gather faithfuls, the theorist's power over his followers becomes very real. This non-existent power is the ego. Science is borne by such.

I think you'll agree with me that there is no point in me answering the remaining questions. I have absolutely no desire to prove myself.

As it happens, the answers to all the questions anyone could ever ask me are to be found in my comments in this thread  Smiley

My original impression that you are a humble guy still stands and I wish you good fortune in all your future endeavors. (And don't worry, this does not mean that we can't chat anymore  Wink )
 

Why do you feel compelled to "prove yourself?"  I thought you'd feel compelled to prove your belief.

With all due respect, when one takes a position that essentially equates to "we can't really know anything absolutely" for whatever reason, it 'a priori' renders the position invalid.  Furthermore, it's fairly frustrating to be accused of "systematically" avoiding your points just after addressing your previous response point-by-point  Huh

legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
BTC | LTC | XLM | VEN | ARDR
November 30, 2014, 04:28:48 AM
I believe in Energy and vibrations, connecting us all. Science and Religion are both a little short sited in my view, Science doesn't acknowledge what it can't see, Religion only talks about this planet....
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
November 30, 2014, 02:44:04 AM
I do not believe in God and I do not believe in Science.

Then why are you using the internet, a tool made possible by science?   Roll Eyes

The two are not mutually exclusive  Wink
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
November 30, 2014, 02:39:44 AM
I do not believe in God and I do not believe in Science.

Then why are you using the internet, a tool made possible by science?   Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
November 30, 2014, 02:29:52 AM
@the joint Well I suppose this was to be expected. Although I never placed any such limit prior to the start of our conversation.
You've systematically missed/avoided/failed to understand every single one of the points I made.

Unfortunately, we're now back to these 2 comments I made earlier in the thread:

Proof exists for anyone who wishes to have it.
Proof is the succulent, seasonless, ever-present fruit hanging from the tree of knowledge. From newborns to centenarians, all are equally well-equipped to pluck it with ease  Cheesy


This limit only exists once you become aware of it. Attempts to contain this limit within a binding set of laws/definitions only lead to perpetual self-questioning and is not recommended lest you should go off on a tangent unbeknownst to yourself.



I do not believe in God and I do not believe in Science. And no, whatever word you come up with, to categorize someone making such a statement, does not encompass me.

The idea of God as a supreme being promotes the concept of "survival of the fittest". Science is the subtle art of restriction, nothing more. Science and religion are exactly the same.
A theory's only purpose is to exert control, whether it be over one's surroundings or other living beings. Any theory is by default impossible. Everything in the theorist's reality is of the same nature as the theorist: infinite. A theory seeks to maintain the theorist as an infinity while reducing everything around the theorist to lesser, apprehensible artifacts.
A proven theory appears to endow its wielder with power, however that is only an illusion as the theory does not truly apprehend the reality of the infinities around the theorist.
Regardless of how much of himself the theorist gives up for his theory, he is always aware of the inadequacy of his theory. With real power out of his reach, the theorist achieves his greatest trick when he is able to convince those around him that his theory is valid. As the newly formed bubble continues to gather faithfuls, the theorist's power over his followers becomes very real. This non-existent power is the ego. Science is borne by such.

I think you'll agree with me that there is no point in me answering the remaining questions. I have absolutely no desire to prove myself.

As it happens, the answers to all the questions anyone could ever ask me are to be found in my comments in this thread  Smiley

My original impression that you are a humble guy still stands and I wish you good fortune in all your future endeavors. (And don't worry, this does not mean that we can't chat anymore  Wink )
 
hero member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 502
November 29, 2014, 11:10:08 PM
Common Logical Proof God Does not exist.

If God existed, and created this world would there really be crime, would there be disese, would there be theives, liars and killers?

He supposedly created us, if we in fact were created in his own image would not God be a lieing, theiving, greedy, unethical, scamming, murdering, raping person?

Why not we were created in his own image right? are there not liars on earth, are there not murderers, and all the things I mentioned? they were here from the beginning of time too. cain and able Smiley.

How do you know the good people are the acception to the situation, how do you know for a fact God is not a liar? a theif? if he was not how did we gain the ability to do these things we were created in his image right?

If God existed why do his followers suffer so much pain while the sinners advance in life from their unethical acts of sin.

God does not exist, if you know anything about religion you would understand this, GOD was not always worshiped thru-out time, before God was ever heard of there were many gods that represented many things, sun gods earth gods star gods moon gods. God was created and God has a brother Allah, The muslim writings are very VERY similar to the christian writings.

As far as the Bible and faith arte concerned please tell me about a possible village of people who never sw a bible never heard of god or jesus. if Jesus is our mediary and the only way to heaven. what happens to this village of people are they condemned to hell because they never even knew God existed?

God is a fabrication of bullshit, churches are one of the most proifitable businesses outside the energy industry. If God existed we would not be having this conversation would we? We would all know he esisted. We dont need faith we need proof, you cant supply hard proof he does not exist PERIOD!!!!

And No I will not go to hell for I have lived my life on hell when i die I will die, I will turn to dust and become part of the evolution cycle. I will not go to heaven I will not go to hell. If there is a hell we are living on it now Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1019
Merit: 1003
Kobocoin - Mobile Money for Africa
November 29, 2014, 11:00:55 PM
Since this thread is going nowhere, thought I would lighten it up with some religious humor!  I encourage everyone to join in.


Not no homos. No buggering, period! Homo, hetero, retro.... it don't matter. No buggering!

Love is love, buggering is buggering.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
November 29, 2014, 10:47:22 PM
Since this thread is going nowhere, thought I would lighten it up with some religious humor!  I encourage everyone to join in.

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
November 29, 2014, 10:46:24 PM
Anyone lacking knowledge had best keep an open mind and get on with his/her studies.

Good advice. Until anyone has the knowledge of God, he will be studying, even in simply living his life.


Apologize to me, loser.

Now you are starting to sound like the devil talking when he order Jesus to bow down to him, in the temptations in the wilderness.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1019
Merit: 1003
Kobocoin - Mobile Money for Africa
November 29, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
There's no scientific proof that God exists because its not the job of scientists to prove that God exists. There are no multi-billion dollar labs searching for proof of the existence of God in the heavens (well, none that I know of).

Please note here that there's also no scientific proof of Love (not infatuation) either.

They leave that to artists, poets, and movie makers.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
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Licking my boob since 1970
November 29, 2014, 09:30:05 PM
legendary
Activity: 1834
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November 29, 2014, 06:35:35 PM

1)  You generally mention all these inconsistencies and assumptions, but I haven't seen you mention a specific one.  Would you?


Ok before I even say anything on this, I would like to set up a little scenario/experiment to explore the word 'impossible'. This is the simplest and easiest to understand analogy I could come up with but do not be fooled, if you stay open minded, it should help you resolve the vast majority of tricky questions  Smiley Also keep in mind that 'impossible' only equals to 'limit'.

Challenge: describe the color 'red' to a person of your choice. You are free to use any means you can think of.

Red is visible light with a wavelength of about 650nm.

Quote

Now imagine a world where every living being is color blind and you are the only one to see colors. You would fit in just as you fit in now and you would spend your whole life without ever knowing that you are different. This is an instance of a limit that exists without you ever being aware of it.

In that example, it's possible to become aware of the limit.

Quote
Going up a notch, imagine what it is to be a grain of sand (notice that I didn't say 'what it is like') With all of your senses tending to infinity, you are still not able to apprehend the reality of being a grain of sand.
I'm gonna use this picture I've painted as a simplistic but to the point definition of an infinity (i.e something that cannot be apprehended in it's entirety by the senses. You can chase after it forever but will never actually get there)

Okay, I'm imagining. It sounds like you're talking about shared experience...with sand.

Quote
Going back to your question, for Langan's theory to even make any sense at all, it is imperative that everything within the universe/reality be brought down from their natural state of being which is infinite. 

I'll follow along with this assumption for now.

Quote
I find it curious that he says, I quote "Nor, for identical reasons, can we think of the universe as the sum of its parts, for these parts exist solely within a spacetime manifold identified with the whole and cannot explain the manifold itself." and then goes on to say "This rules out pluralistic explanations of reality" Where does he situate himself within his statement?
If he considers himself 'a part of the universe', is he not contradicting himself when he says "cannot explain the manifold itself" and then goes on to explain it anyway?

Obviously, I can't speak for him, nor do I prefer to.  However, this passage seems to discuss the issue:

Quote
But what if we now introduce a distinction between levels of proof?  For example, what if we define a metalanguage as a language used to talk about, analyze or prove things regarding statements in a lower-level object language, and call the base level of Gödel’s formula the "object" level and the higher (proof) level the "metalanguage" level?  Now we have one of two things: a statement that can be metalinguistically proven to be linguistically unprovable, and thus recognized as a theorem conveying valuable information about the limitations of the object language, or a statement that cannot be metalinguistically proven to be linguistically unprovable, which, though uninformative, is at least no paradox.  Voilà: self-reference without paradox!  It turns out that "this formula is unprovable" can be translated into a generic example of an undecidable mathematical truth.  Because the associated reasoning involves a metalanguage of mathematics, it is called “metamathematical”[/i].

Quote
The analogy that comes to my mind is that of a single living cell on an arm that identifies with the body as a whole but cannot explain the consciousness that its interaction with other cells around it help bring about.

I don't think the analogy holds.  Our knowledge of the Universe is born of a linkage between mind and information.  Minds process information in a logical way, resulting in an observably consistent Universe.  A theory of theories explains the relationship between mind and reality, i.e. theorization.  We already partake in this relationship on a continual basis, so it is possible to reflect upon our cognitive relationship via metacognition, thereby objectifying it.

Quote
"which simply tells us what we should and should not be considering." How is it even possible to have a complete theory if there are certain things that should not be considered.

Certain things are topically irrelevant.  For example, any talk of what might exist outside of reality is irrelevant.  If something was real enough to affect reality, it would be included within it.  So, hypotheticals, unobservables, unreals...stuff like that.

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There are countless other inconsistencies but we'll skip those Wink

Okay.

Quote
Ok now to tackle his theory as a whole. The crux of his proposition: he explains everything within reality, (that extends to things he is not necessarily aware of) by a self-including reality.

You don't necessarily need to explain things of which you're not aware if you can explain the nature of conditional phenomena in general.  Things which are logically impossible to be aware of are irrelevant.

Quote
It is not a stupid idea, I guess some would say it's clever, however all he's done is bypass his own sensory/intellectual limits by empowering reality with sentience.

I think it's self-evident that observation gives rise to definition of real phenomena.  A total lack of observation means that information isn't being processed and therefore remains unintelligble, i.e. the information isn't processed into theory.

 
Quote
The important thing he fails to grasp is that he is still not apprehending eternity. He's merely transposed his/the current state from the confines of his physical body/mind to a near-infinite body called reality.

I don't think "apprehending eternity" is any sort of primary consideration of this theory.

Quote
The same limitations that apply to him also apply to the self-including reality. It's like the single living cell, giving up it's individuality and empowering its reality (the whole body) with sentience. But then we all know that the body is not everything, because there is the body's own reality. Same thing, different scale. The serpent twisting to eat it's own tail. His all-encompassing reality will never know of it's own limits if it's not aware of it. A limit only exists once you become aware of it.

It seems that most of your rebuttals assume the idea that reality causes mind rather than working in tandem to beget each other.  I believe this is an appropriate quote:

Quote
Reality, i.e. the real universe, contains all and only that which is real. The reality concept is
analytically self-contained; if there were something outside reality that were real enough to affect
or influence reality, it would be inside reality, and this contradiction invalidates any supposition of
an external reality (up to observational or theoretical relevance).31

While this characterization of reality incorporates a circular definition of relevance, the circularity
is essential to the reality concept and does not preclude a perceptual (observational, scientific)
basis. Indeed, we can refine the definition of reality as follows: “Reality is the perceptual
aggregate including (1) all scientific observations that ever were and ever will be, and (2) the
entire abstract and/or cognitive explanatory infrastructure of perception” (where the abstract is a
syntactic generalization of the concrete standing for ideas, concepts or cognitive structures
distributing over physical instances which conform to them as content conforms to syntax).

It should be noted that any definition amounts to a microscopic theory of the thing defined. The
Reality Principle, which can be viewed as a general definition of reality, is a case in point; it can
be viewed as the seed of a reality theory that we have now begun to build. In defining reality as
self-contained, this “microtheory” endows itself with a simple kind of closure; it calls on nothing
outside the definiendum in the course of defining it, and effectively forbids any future theoretical
extension of this definition from doing so either (this becomes explicit in a related principle, the
MAP).

Quote
That's it for today!  Smiley

Okay Smiley
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
November 29, 2014, 09:25:03 AM
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
November 29, 2014, 09:21:50 AM

1)  You generally mention all these inconsistencies and assumptions, but I haven't seen you mention a specific one.  Would you?


Ok before I even say anything on this, I would like to set up a little scenario/experiment to explore the word 'impossible'. This is the simplest and easiest to understand analogy I could come up with but do not be fooled, if you stay open minded, it should help you resolve the vast majority of tricky questions  Smiley Also keep in mind that 'impossible' only equals to 'limit'.

Challenge: describe the color 'red' to a person of your choice. You are free to use any means you can think of.

Now imagine a world where every living being is color blind and you are the only one to see colors. You would fit in just as you fit in now and you would spend your whole life without ever knowing that you are different. This is an instance of a limit that exists without you ever being aware of it.

Going up a notch, imagine what it is to be a grain of sand (notice that I didn't say 'what it is like') With all of your senses tending to infinity, you are still not able to apprehend the reality of being a grain of sand.
I'm gonna use this picture I've painted as a simplistic but to the point definition of an infinity (i.e something that cannot be apprehended in it's entirety by the senses. You can chase after it forever but will never actually get there)

Going back to your question, for Langan's theory to even make any sense at all, it is imperative that everything within the universe/reality be brought down from their natural state of being which is infinite.

I find it curious that he says, I quote "Nor, for identical reasons, can we think of the universe as the sum of its parts, for these parts exist solely within a spacetime manifold identified with the whole and cannot explain the manifold itself." and then goes on to say "This rules out pluralistic explanations of reality" Where does he situate himself within his statement?
If he considers himself 'a part of the universe', is he not contradicting himself when he says "cannot explain the manifold itself" and then goes on to explain it anyway?
The analogy that comes to my mind is that of a single living cell on an arm that identifies with the body as a whole but cannot explain the consciousness that its interaction with other cells around it help bring about.

"which simply tells us what we should and should not be considering." How is it even possible to have a complete theory if there are certain things that should not be considered.

There are countless other inconsistencies but we'll skip those Wink

Ok now to tackle his theory as a whole. The crux of his proposition: he explains everything within reality, (that extends to things he is not necessarily aware of) by a self-including reality. It is not a stupid idea, I guess some would say it's clever, however all he's done is bypass his own sensory/intellectual limits by empowering reality with sentience. The important thing he fails to grasp is that he is still not apprehending eternity. He's merely transposed his/the current state from the confines of his physical body/mind to a near-infinite body called reality. The same limitations that apply to him also apply to the self-including reality. It's like the single living cell, giving up it's individuality and empowering its reality (the whole body) with sentience. But then we all know that the body is not everything, because there is the body's own reality. Same thing, different scale. The serpent twisting to eat it's own tail. His all-encompassing reality will never know of it's own limits if it's not aware of it. A limit only exists once you become aware of it.

That's it for today!  Smiley
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
November 28, 2014, 11:04:35 PM


legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
November 28, 2014, 10:58:50 PM

I'm sorry you are having a bad day. But, judging from many of your other posts, it may be a bad life in general.

You don't even make sense when you insult people.  Seriously, what does this even mean?

Quote
Most of us use descriptive, often idiomatic, inexact language to get our points across. The language is, itself, built this way. For example, you drive on the parkway and park in the driveway.

If you change the definition of science then you're no longer talking about science.  Your parkway/driveway nonsense is in no way a relevant response.

Quote
Among those who use descriptive language that is not grammatically accurate, and may include some idioms, is bl4kjaguar. In fact, he/she/it uses such language quite frequently. My response was for him/her/it.

But your response doesn't make sense because you start making up definitions for words.  This has nothing to do with bl4kjaguar.  Your response to him simply doesn't make any sense.

Quote
Sorry that you are getting mixed up through it. Realize that it is a language for bl4kjaguar and not necessarily for you. However, I think that you can determine what I was trying to say if you take a step back and look at the picture. I mean, if you look at a Picasso too from about a millimeter away, you won't have a clue about anything that he was trying to depict.


I'm not mixed up at all as I can clearly identify (which I've been demonstrating) where *you* are getting mixed up, for example when you keep using the words "science" or "scientific method" over and over but keep making up new definitions for them on the fly.

So no, I don't know exactly what you were trying to say because you believe in statements which don't make any sense.  How am I supposed to know what you mean when it doesn't make any sense?  

Quote
By the way, the fact that there are logical and illogical things that happen and exist, doesn't mean that there are no "unlogical" things that more or less happen and more or less exist. Just ask bl4kjaguar.

Illogical things happen and exist?  Lol are you a wizard?  Name one.  BTW, "unlogical" isn't a word.  Quit making stuff up.

Well, good. At least you're not becoming suicidal like that joker in https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/becoming-suicidal-868926 .

Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
November 28, 2014, 10:27:30 PM
I believe in god, I know god exists.

I don't think scientists can prove it. How can we prove it though? How can we know god actually exists?..

The world is the answer.
How do you think the world was created?
How do you think the first man came?
How do you think were all here today?

We have to agree, that at some point there was only 1 person in the world, and now look at it...

all these questions must have one explanation or real answer.
That answer is: God exists

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
November 28, 2014, 07:06:12 PM

I'm sorry you are having a bad day. But, judging from many of your other posts, it may be a bad life in general.

You don't even make sense when you insult people.  Seriously, what does this even mean?

Quote
Most of us use descriptive, often idiomatic, inexact language to get our points across. The language is, itself, built this way. For example, you drive on the parkway and park in the driveway.

If you change the definition of science then you're no longer talking about science.  Your parkway/driveway nonsense is in no way a relevant response.

Quote
Among those who use descriptive language that is not grammatically accurate, and may include some idioms, is bl4kjaguar. In fact, he/she/it uses such language quite frequently. My response was for him/her/it.

But your response doesn't make sense because you start making up definitions for words.  This has nothing to do with bl4kjaguar.  Your response to him simply doesn't make any sense.

Quote
Sorry that you are getting mixed up through it. Realize that it is a language for bl4kjaguar and not necessarily for you. However, I think that you can determine what I was trying to say if you take a step back and look at the picture. I mean, if you look at a Picasso too from about a millimeter away, you won't have a clue about anything that he was trying to depict.


I'm not mixed up at all as I can clearly identify (which I've been demonstrating) where *you* are getting mixed up, for example when you keep using the words "science" or "scientific method" over and over but keep making up new definitions for them on the fly.

So no, I don't know exactly what you were trying to say because you believe in statements which don't make any sense.  How am I supposed to know what you mean when it doesn't make any sense?  

Quote
By the way, the fact that there are logical and illogical things that happen and exist, doesn't mean that there are no "unlogical" things that more or less happen and more or less exist. Just ask bl4kjaguar.

Illogical things happen and exist?  Lol are you a wizard?  Name one.  BTW, "unlogical" isn't a word.  Quit making stuff up.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
November 28, 2014, 06:49:36 PM
BADecker,

Anyone lacking knowledge had best keep an open mind and get on with his/her studies.

You are not supposed to be attacking your brother with words like "foolishness".

Where is the proof for your claim that the Bible is the only recorded word of God?

How can you be sure that you have Christ's authentic teachings if your book was not written by Christ?

How can you be sure that Paul wrote down Christ's authentic teachings if Paul was never a "follower of Christ"?

I am fed up with your attacking my beliefs; you have no right to speak anything to me unless it happens to be an apology.

Apologize to me, loser.
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