Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 391. (Read 845569 times)

In some customs people wear black and 'mourn' when a baby is born, and wear white and rejoice when someone dies, because they believe life is suffering.

I don't have time right now to comment on everything (I have a feeling that my opinion probably doesn't matter to you that much anyhow) but I do have a quick story to share regarding "seeing" people that are possessed.

What is strange is that I can feel their presence without seeing them first.  Then when I look the direction that the person is in they are often glaring at me with a sinister look.   My husband has a story that is more compelling though.  When he was in college he had a part-time job at an auto parts store.  There was a really weird guy that would come in on occasion and talk about Nostradamus and my husband noticed that he was possessed.  There was a very weird and dark spirit about him.  One day he was at work and he felt this guy's presence even though the guy was not in the store at the time.  My husband then commented to his co-workers "That Nostradamus guy is back."  The guy wasn't there so they said, "Where?"  My husband then sensed him near the 7-11 store next door and then pointed.  He sensed the guy walking and as his finger moved to where the guy was he was directly pointing at him when his figure appeared in the window walking by the store front.  His co-workers started freaking out and asking him how he knew that.  My husband just said it was easy.  He could "see" him or "sense" his evil or dark presence.  Having had this same experience I totally get it and understand it.  But it is something we can only "see" with our spiritual eyes.

While the exact timeline is not completely clear yet, the majority of the research into the subject says that the brain connections needed to feel pain are not made until somewhere around 20 weeks.  The very lowest number I was able to find was 8 weeks, so that's a 2 month window minimum to get it done with no chance of harm.

Accepted. Accepted by God. You have chosen. God still allows you time to change your mind. But, whatever you do, He abides by your choice, willingly.

I completely agree with human rights. We should not harm others. But where the choice is between a woman and her fetus, it is two lives, even though they inhabit much of the same space. That lump of cells is not as unfeeling as one might think.

Your diamond and flower analogies have nothing to do with pain and suffering.

Trusting god has a reason for it is not comforting. Trusting Jesus is the son of god or that he died for our sins seems ludicrous to me. There is just no need for any of it.

Being omnipotent means you are all powerful. The only reason anything exists, the way it is, is because you meant for it to be that way. Once more, if I was god and loved you unconditionally (the way you believe god does) I would not need you to worship me, or need to test you, or make you endure any hardship to prove your loyalty to me. Do you do this to your children if you love them, or ask them to prove their love for you? No, of course you don't. That's rediculous - correction - that's psychotic.

Until the fetus is able to sense things it's just the same as having never been created IMO.  No woman should be forced to give birth to something that she doesn't want.  It could have been from rape, a broken condom, or she just thought she was prepared but backed out at the last second.  I think we should value the life of a human more than a clump of cells that can't feel anything.  Even when it can feel, it does not have a right to life until it is able to live on it's own.  It's like a vampire that you're letting consensually suck your blood, if you want it to stop then you have a right to make it stop.  I don't support abortion, I support the right of a woman to choose what is right for her body and life.  That being said, if you're going to abort then it should be done before it can sense, that's just the right thing to do, but shit happens  (flaming in 3... 2... 1...)

I don't think I'm going to live forever without one, I think I'm going to be dead after that final burst of DMT wears off and my brain is inactive.  Same as before I was born.

Have a little mercy. Look at all the fun you have had in your life. And you want to allow others to deny that to still others? Have a little mercy.



EDIT: You don't need a savior? Does this mean that you know for a fact that you are going to live forever without one?

The placebo effect is a powerful thing.  A good analogy is those powerbalance wristbands that say their holograms will make you have better posture, better at sports, etc.  They actually are nothing but a piece of foil and some rubber, but the people wearing them believe in it so much that their brains make it true.  I'm not sure what you mean by they "saw" you too, but 2 people looking at eachother proves nothing supernatural.

I didn't say evolution is 100% fact (at least as to where we came from), I was refuting the claim that we know nothing 100%.  Some piece of evidence could come along that completely disproves us coming from evolution, but until then the mountains of evidence we have for it completely blows away any other ideas.  We can never say for 100% certainty because we weren't there to observe it, but we're pretty damn close (and finding more and more things to support it every day).

However, we do know for a fact that species do evolve.  We have made bacteria in labs evolve right before our eyes to use a new food source that they were never able to before (Source)

The odds of us evolving the way we did are pretty irrelevant, as with how large our universe is there are so many places that it could have happened.  If you believe in the big bang/big crunch theory then there could have been a bunch of times that no life was formed and the universe was empty, but we weren't there to comment on it those times, only the ones something did happen.  As for the no order from chaos, I urge you to watch This video, as it does a much better and more in-depth job of explaining it than I ever could.  I don't understand what you mean by 'no matter what the evidence shows', as all the evidence we've found so far supports evolution.


Well I personally am fine with abortion, and there really is no way to judge whose idea is right or wrong unless we're going by the bible.  The eternal hell isn't a valid argument, just trying to scare people into believing.  I don't need a savior, doing just fine, thanks

People are hostile to any religion other than their's in a lot of cases, or a specific religion because of the one they believe in, culture, etc.  In some places any religion except for the one of the state is banned, so does that mean every religion is valid?  The bible has changed people because they read it and thought they could be changed, coming back to the placebo effect.

The simple answer is, without freedom to choose something that was not allowed, man could not be nearly as great of a being as God had in mind for him.

So, are you going to continue to fight God, and deny yourself, along with denying the true greatness that you could be? Or are you going to change, and choose to not resist God like those who ate the fruit in the Garden and became corrupted within themselves? Are you now going to finally choose to be on God's side, with Him in greatness or not? Your call. But like the two in the Garden, the choice is still yours.

Of course I am not a fan of pain and suffering either, who is really?  But my question then is why would God then choose to suffer with us?  He did not have to do that either.  It becomes more a question of trusting Him in spite of the pain and suffering we are enduring during our short time here on earth and allowing Him to use that pain.  Diamonds can't shine unless they have been polished.  Flowers can't grow unless they have had rain.  We all have long roads and long journeys in our lives but God can help us see that there can be treasures hidden in the painful things we go through, if we just let him use those things!  I like to say that the greatest treasure in my life came through pain and suffering,  the pain and suffering Jesus endured on the cross for me.
 
Also, there is something miraculous in how God is able to use our suffering for good.  In fact, He even promises to "work out all things for the good of those called according to His purpose."  Regardless of how much I dislike pain and suffering, I trust that God has a plan and He does promise that He will wipe "all tears from our eyes" someday.

Why would god create something (the fruit of knowledge) only to deny us it? Why would god create an angel only to cast it into hell? This is insane, at the very least sadistic.


I knew this would be the argument. Being an all powerful omnipotent being, god can grant 'free will' without pain and suffering.

Let me just say, if I were god I would not need to test you. I would not create things to torture them or even leave them in uncertainty. (I could write a book on this, but I'd rather not.)

Ok for the sake of argument here's one example of god creating something specifically for pain and suffering.

Why is there a need for such excruciating pain?
"In the Schmidt sting pain index, a 0 is given to a sting from an insect that can not break through human skin, a 2 is given for intermediate pain, and a 4 is given for intense pain. Tarantula hawks, have a sting rating of 4. The sting is described as "blinding, fierce, and shockingly electric. A running hair dryer has been dropped into your bubble bath." Only the sting of the Bullet Ant is ranked higher, with a 4+ rating."

Why is there a need for such suffering?
"As the larva feeds on its host, it saves the vital organs, such as the heart and central nervous system, for last. By waiting until the final larval instar, it ensures the spider will not decompose before the larva has fully developed."

This is an age old question.  How could a loving God allow suffering?  

It is a valid question and one that many people, myself included, have had to wrestle with.  There is of course the question of God giving us "free will" which allows us to make choices.  We can choose to do good and love others or we can choose to sin and harm others.  We live in a "fallen" world where sin is around us all of the time and we have these choices to make on a daily basis.  Sure, God could just hit the "smite button" from heaven and kill us all when we sin.  There would be no one left on earth if that happened.

But from God's love for us comes a great opportunity.  We have the chance to extend love and forgiveness to others.  We have a chance to repent of our mistakes.  We have to realize that God is not in heaven looking down in a cruel way and laughing at our suffering.  He chose to become one of us.  He came to earth as a baby and even suffered greatly and was killed, as an innocent man on the cross, in one of the cruelest and most painful deaths a human could endure.  Why? Because He wanted to show us that He loved us that much.  Did He have to do that for us?  Instead of being grateful for that, instead we yell at Him.  We throw our fists in the air and say, "if there is a god I could not despise it more."  If a friend was willing to give up his life for you so that you could be saved from suffering is this the way to treat him?  In the same way this is how we are treating Jesus when we do this to Him.  

I for one am forever grateful that God out of His great love for us, chose to come and live with us to understand our pain and suffering and then gave His life for mine.  

God didn't do that.

God was so loving that He gave to many kinds of creatures life, and He gave to the angels and to people part of the greatness that He is. He gave us freedom.

God told us how to act - one simple rule in the Garden - don't eat the one kind of fruit. We listened to the devil - a formerly good angel who corrupted himself - and caused our own destruction by eating the fruit.

Now, God provides almost the only method possible to exist for saving us - His Son, Jesus - and so many of us still think God is bad, that God creates the evil, that God wants to harm us.

Please, for your own good, stop rejecting the only salvation that there is. Turn to God for the help He so willingly offers. God is not against you. God is in your favor, trying to help you. But you simply won't let Him.

I'm going to keep this as short as possible.

I've come to the realization that I am not an atheist. I am actually antitheist, since I am repulsed by the thought of there being a god character responsible for bringing things like suffering, horror and despair into existence. A god capable of creating any existence could have created it to be perfect or 'heavenly' in the first place. Therefore I find the god character loathsome and despicable.

Even the (agnostic) uncertainty of god's existence and intentions is in and of itself taxing, like a form of cancer. This is why people of faith believe without question. Yet a god wanting to have a relationship with its creation obviously wouldn't be so ambiguous.

So you see, the idea of there being no god is by far more preferable to me than the idea of there being one, since if there is one I could not despise it more.

Have a nice day. 

Oh, BitChick. You have such a nice way of saying things. You always remind us that we need not take the burden of the world on our shoulders, but that God has already done that through Jesus, His Son, our Savior.

Thanks.

Cooldgamer,

I know your comments are directed to BADecker, but if you don't mind I will share a few thoughts. (And if you do mind you can just ingore me. )

Blind faith?  I guess you can can see it that way.  What is really strange, and even supernatural if you will, is that the Bible says that God will "Open the eyes of the blind."  In a way a person cannot see things spiritually until this happens.  Many people have said that the Bible made no sense to them until they accepted Christ and then it was like they could "see" things that they never saw before.  There have been times in my life where I have "seen" sins that a person is struggling with with the sole purpose of just praying for that person.  I have "seen" visions.  I have "seen"  several people that I recognized were demon possessed just by feeling their presence in the room and then looked that direction and saw that they "saw" me too!  A bit creepy but at the same time it just proved to me that I can "see" things in a spiritual way that many cannot.  The Bible is even said to be "foolish" to those that do not have the eyes to see.  Instead of judging others for not seeing I should be saying that I would not expect anything less.

There are some things in science that are 100% fact.  Evolution has not been proven as 100% fact.  It is taught that way now.  This is a huge problem with the scientific community today.

It is hard for me to grasp how something as complex as a human cell could be thought to happen by chance and knowing the complexity of even a single celled organisms structure and ability to work could have just happened from nothing.  The odds of even a single cell evolving are beyond belief and could even be said to be mathematically impossible. Order does not come from chaos.  This is impossible and has not been observed.  It seems that the desire to prove evolution no matter what the evidence shows has blinded most from what I can see.  

Morality should not be based solely on societal norms.  Throughout history there have been things that society says is "OK" that changes based on whatever the culture decides is good or bad (for instance, right now our culture is fine with abortion and under God's law that is murder for example)  God has given us His laws and these laws are the standards in which we should judge ourselves by.  If we have even broken one of His commandments then we are held guilty under those laws and will need to pay the price for breaking those laws.  The penalty is eternal punishment.  However, God out of His great love and mercy has given us the option of repenting and He even paid the price for our sins (Jesus' death on a cross then resurrection) if we are willing to accept that free gift.  However, many do not even think that they need a savior.  

I guess the thing that I would mention, in regards to your point that the Bible is not true or it is just our "truth" is the question of why are so many people hostile to it?  If it wasn't so revolutionary why is it still banned in so many places?  Why has the Bible changed people's lives so much?  Why have people been willing to give up their lives for the "truth" in it, especially if it was not important?  Sure there are other religions that people give their lives for willingly, however, the one thing that separates Christianity from all other religions is that Christianity is the only religion that is not about earning our way to God.  In fact, it is all about realizing that there is no possible way to earn salvation at all.  It is about realizing that we are in need of help.  It takes humility and an open heart that prays and ask God to forgive us and "open our eyes" if you will to see things from God's perspective.  Then God, out of His great love, comes in and helps us to see not only ourselves, but others in a different way.  He helps us to love ourselves and others. He helps us to forgive, have joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control.  He give us the gift of His Spirit in our hearts and then we are able to do good things because of His love, not because we are trying to "earn" our salvation but because we are so thankful for what He has done for us.  

Actually, you do quite well for someone who obviously doesn't have the ability to analyze evidence, and come to a conclusion that approximates reality.

So much BS in this I couldn't help but make a giant response

You still have blind faith in the bible, there is absolutely no way to know the accuracy of what was written.  Every religion has a holy book, what makes yours valid and theirs not?
Actually, there are many things we know as 100% fact.  We know we're not going to go floating away because of gravity, we know that cause has effect, we know that mass x velocity = force, etc...  If we didn't know anything for sure the computer you're typing on right now wouldn't exist

Actually they spread it because we're trying to evolve as a species and understand our universe better, unlike religious people trying to stay in the dark ages.  Everything we have found so far points to evolution, and nothing towards the christian idea of intelligent design.


No, there's so few of you that are stupid enough to believe in a book of fairy tales that contradicts everything we have observed

Oh man, this is rich.  You have /no/ logic whatsoever, every post you make is full of fallacies, false information, and straight up ignoring facts.  I've read through all of your comments, and they're moronic.  There is nothing convincing in them, nothing that hasn't already been debunked, and the majority of it was just preaching about your sky-daddy.

I love how you're pretty much admitting here that without your holy book you would probably act like a beast.  We have morals because we're decent human beings, because of societal rules, and because jail sucks.

These ideas are not alternative to the truth, yours are.  There is no evidence whatsoever for your beliefs and a ton for ours.  

I am going to disagree with you here BADecker.  I think that many, if not most, people are very sure of their ideas and believe that they are correct in their thinking and they are confident that they are NOT wrong and are fairly sure that we are the ones that are fully misguided.  They are content with their level of morality and gauge themselves on a standard in which they compare themselves to others around them.  In a way they believe that morality is graded on a curve.  As long as there are some that are worse (which of course there usually is) then are in a good place and could even rationalize that if there is an afterlife they should be granted admission.  However, some of us have come to the realization that when looking at God's standards, no one on earth is "good enough."  Seeing ourselves for who and what we really are in light of God's perfection and complete holiness becomes the integral part of a person realizing that they are indeed in need of help.  Why some realize it more than others is the question.  The Bible even says that it is the "sick that need a doctor" and "those that are forgiven of much love much."  To grasp that we have not measured up to God's standards and we have all broken one of His laws (who has not lied for instance) become the measuring stick in which we need to look at our lives and realize that all of us need help and need to repent, instead of doing a simple comparison.  To compare ourselves to others really isn't the way to justify ourselves.  I think in a way it is those that feel completely ashamed and unworthy of God's grace are the ones that He reaches down to with love and forgiveness just for the humility in which they come to Him.  

This is why I think it becomes futile to even have these discussions.  Most of the people on this forum are not the "sick" and do not think that they have any need of forgiveness.  Of course we all need forgiveness and no one is "good enough" but if someone thinks that they are good enough it will take something to convince them otherwise and unfortunately I feel that nothing I can say on here will really do that.