Topic: [staff] xandry: may I ask an explanation? Response received! - page 4. (Read 2699 times)

Why are people attacking the merit system left, right and center? It shows that majority are not concerned about the quality of the forum but just quantity.

@Welsh yes, he is the one who will have better explanation.

Did anyone PMed xandry. Seems like he still has not seen my message. I am not sure If I should PM him again or not?

Yeah, I would like hear off Xandry if possible as I don't want anything to be lost in translation as well as have any bias. Although, I do appreciate the effort of translating the post, and linking that thread.


Like I said I've got mixed feelings about it, although merit wasn't introduced for the purpose of offering a reward for reports, and as we've all mentioned before how it's easily abused. I've not got a problem with rewarding people who make the effort to report at it's very definition. It's the possibilities of users making alternate accounts, and posting nonsense just to report it which not only is abuse, but leads to more spam, and workload for the legitimate reporters as well as staff members.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing this so far, and as far as I can tell it's had a positive impact of a few members judging by the amount that they've reported, and I'm sure the possibility of receiving merit as contributed a large amount to that. Now that's public though there by me a few opportunistic individuals that abuse it.

I'm going to reiterate my point that Xandry should not be punished or removed as a merit source as a result of this, but should probably consider stopping it or at the very least keep a eye out for any abuse.

As you've mentioned yourself reporting is a pretty thankless job, and can sometimes be extremely tedious, and time consuming. But, I don't think I agree that merit is the way to go about it. Plus, it's not too different to the topics that certain members have posted in the Meta section, and I think I've noticed a few members doing it in hopes of earning merit rather than just simply reporting the post.

I don't think adding some sort of criteria would be of benefit either such as x amount of reports gets you 1 merit as fundamentally that's not what the merit system was implemented for. Merit was introduced to encourage users to post high quality content by rewarding them with merit, and putting certain restrictions on users who haven't hit certain thresholds. This is mainly why a merit source dishing out merits for reports doesn't quite sit right. A merit source is appointed because of their capabilities to pick out good quality posts. Offering merit points for reports isn't encouraging quality content makers, but those who report. Yeah, I know it more reports is a good thing, and the people who regularly report should probably be noticed, and rewarding, but the merit system isn't really for that. I've received a few messages off moderators, and an admin in the past thanking me for reporting, and I'm sure that's enough of encourage for most users.

Anyway, I'll stop banging on about this. I don't think it's a major issue until the potential abuse kicks in, but then again I think Xandry is intelligent enough to determine what's abuse, and what isn't so it's probably a non issue.

It's probably not a problem currently. Although, I would be worried that the account farmers would of noticed this, and start reporting in a way to rank up. 80 merits is probably worth a lot to them. I'm guessing this is your report stats, nice one!

The only saving grace I think we have is this is in a local board, and will limit the amount of abuse.

@Alex_Sr I or I guess we have nothing to do with you. The logic we are only assuming, we are not saying it's correct. We actually do not know what is going on.

- I already sent xandry a message last night before I crash the bed, seems like he still did not see it (may be) yet.

If you follow your logic - there should be 3924 merit points. In reality I see 80 merit from xandry.
Don't you think you're wrong somewhere again?


Any other questions?

My post was triggered by this comment by him.


It may have been taken out of context, so as Hilarious said, perhaps we should wait for clarification.

You don't even know what he's been giving it out for yet and if in fact he has been doing it as all you're going on is the post of one person, but how would this be any different than people getting merit for their posts/threads in Meta or Reputation for helping out and reporting/busting spambots, farmers and merit traders etc? I don't think people should be getting merit for every report or something, but I don't see a problem with those who help out by making posts that help moderation etc.

If a merit source doesn't have the time, or the inclination, to look for posts to award with merits, then he shouldn't be a merit source in my opinion.

I'd say that he is either seriously farming merits and accounts or is lazy. now that people know about this issue he should change his meriting tactics and we should also move on. now he knows that we're on to him. please do not continue doing this.

As I am the one who recieves merits from xandry, I'll try to clarify some points.
For a start - let him speak for himself (since he answered in a thread in Russian section devoted to similar question):


That is to say:

1. He doesn't give merits for reports themselves. Currently you can receive merits only if you report some violation and simultaneously leave a message for the author of violating post/topic explaining what was wrong and how to avoid alike situations in future. These messages receive merits since they're considered as helpful enough. Next the topic/post is deleted, so you can see that "Deleted/Off-limits/Ignored" thing on the stats page.

2. He doesn't give merits for every report. See the clarification about chances above.

3. Also trust me you don't need to create alts and post nonsense in order to report something and obtain merits in Russian-section: we've got enough "actual" violators there. In fact in some subsections (like Newcomers or Bitcoin news) dozens of new topics are being created daily, and every second topic breakes the rules. People just don't care about reading them - all they think about is their neverending bounty-reports.

I hope this would help to make the situation a little bit clearer.

In addition: For some of us the so-called "help in moderation" isn't limited to "what's-wrong-explanations". For instance, my reports mostly aren't followed by any messages and don't imply any rewards (you can look at my history here). The same applies to replies in "service"-topics mentioned by xandry.

I'm never against people getting rewarded for their efforts, but reporting is something which is easily abused if there's gain associated with it, and it seems like Xandry may have been rewarding per report which is even worse due to the sheer amount that could be reported for merit. Maybe there is a way to reward those who report, but merit is not one of them, and anything else that I can think of would quickly lead to abuse at least the way it is users are reporting for the right reasons.

If this idea came to practise, mods would be buried in reports. Since you can go to bounty section or bitcoin discussion and just click away, pretty much, every other post and basically get enough merit for a few ranks. 

Also, this would allow farming of alts again, same method. Sooo.... Nope, not a good idea.

It is OK if a mod and a merit source is meriting known and good forum members, however it is not OK to merit every random member for reporting and helping him.

oho! We all are dumb to some extent

These people are earning merits by reporting shit posts. Let's say this is my main account. The rule is I will get 1 merit to report one shit post. I can create one ALT and can make 10 shit posts from that alt. Now, from my main account, I report those 10 shit posts and I am getting 10 merits in my main account for those 10 reports  

Wait, I guess I realize now, what I did not understand...
I do not need 500 ALTs. May be 10 alts and create 100 shit posts from those 10 alts. From my main account keep reporting one after another. I will have 1000 merits which is enough for becoming a Legendary member.  

You don't mind big smiles vod, do you?  

PS: I need to be a bit careful on reporting though so that the mod do not get my trick.

---

Update:
Yes, good chunk but not most of them. Don't you think I am working really hard to earn them?

No, I am not accusing him but it's not the right way. It does not satisfy the principal of awarding merit IMO and you can see others have the same opinion.

---

I do think the same. We need to hear Xandry's opinion. May be he has this innocent idea to help the community but it is an abuse from outside.

Is that a compliment?  

I Know....

If I have not misunderstood in the Russian section, if I report a spammer with the "report to moderator" I have a chance to have a reward in Merit.
From here, if I create 500 alts to spam and report them with my main account, I will increase my chances of having Merit.


@eddie13, 500 is a symbolic number can be even 1, (but more is better for the newbie spam protection timer).

I like this idea because I personaly report many messagges but it easy exploitable.
I have no doubt about the goodness of the gesture of mod but I know the human tendency to turn the rules for a personal profit.

I have mixed feelings on this. Xandry likely has innocent intentions, but doesn't realize that this could very easily be abused, and could result in more spam/infringing posts. I would like to think they would stop rewarding merits if they suspected this to be the case. I don't think Xandry should face punishment for this, nor be removed as a merit source. I think they should definitely stop awarding merits for reports, because of the likelihood of abuse especially now that it's more public than it was before.  

If they aren't a merit source, and was awarding members with sMerit they'vereceived himself through their posts I don't think there would be too much of a problem, because at the end of the day it's up to the person what they perceive worthy of merit. However, if they are a merit source which looks likely then it could quickly become a problem as merit sources have more merits to send out, and are 'responsible' for rewarding high quality posts. Looking at the merit sent in seems that a few people have caught on to it, and it's the same users that keep popping up. I'm not sure if they've always reported, but at a external point of view looks like they've found an easy way to earn merit.

It's a strange one, because he's sending the merit to posts that have since been deleted which means that those users would of had to post in that thread before it was deleted. Makes me wonder on how they are reporting whether they are using the report to moderator button or simply just posting in the thread with instructions to the OP on what they have done wrong etc.

All of the above is on assumption, and viewing it from an external point of view. It would be interesting to see what Xandry has to say about it. I don't think we should be too quick to judge. I think the only problem I see is:
1. Xandry is a merit source
2. How easy it is to abuse.

@OP
You know how to plug your threads don't you?

I think he means using alts to make things to report to get merit.. Like make a shitpost and then report your own post..


I don't see a problem with him giving merit this way as long as you trust him not to be selling merit.. You aren't accusing him of that are you?


As far as the 500 alts scheme.. Don't you think xandry would catch on to that and stop it?


OP, you got a heck of a good chunk of your merit by helping mods and the forum police didn't you?

You two don't understand how the merit system works.  500 alts would have 0 sMerit to give away.  :/

I am sure you are talking about commenting on this topic. That discussion never exposed. It finished at one post after your comment on that section. No one ever noticed that I guess since then.

I remember reading a thread about xandry's way of meriting some time ago and yes he was giving merit to people who help him with the spam in the russian section. IMO this is a double edged sword because what is stopping you from spamming with one account and reporting it with another in hope that xandry will see it and reward you? If he can't handle the spam himself, he should share the position with another staff member.