State of Florida attacks Bitcoin - page 5.

darkmule

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Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 12, 2014, 01:59:12 AM

Quote from: darkmule on February 11, 2014, 11:13:07 PM

Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 02:50:20 PM

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

Where does it say he was even involved in buying stolen credit card numbers? Other than the cops shoving that into the report to give the media something to vilify him and the bitcoins.

In the goddamn criminal complaints!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

Did you even bother reading them? Jesus Christ.

CoinBrokers

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Quote from: darkmule on February 11, 2014, 11:13:07 PM

Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 02:50:20 PM

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

Where does it say he was even involved in buying stolen credit card numbers? Other than the cops shoving that into the report to give the media something to vilify him and the bitcoins.

DaFockBro

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Quote from: darkmule on February 11, 2014, 11:14:20 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

These complaints are written at a ~8th grade reading comprehension level.

That's being charitable. They're written at the reading comprehension level of a pig, since that's who wrote them.

HAHAHA

darkmule

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Quote from: ?? on ??

These complaints are written at a ~8th grade reading comprehension level.

That's being charitable. They're written at the reading comprehension level of a pig, since that's who wrote them.

darkmule

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Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 02:50:20 PM

I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Buying stolen credit card numbers is not a victimless crime.

CoinBrokers

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You're right, I didn't read the complaint because I had already read the article... But thanks for sharing.

BCB

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BCJ

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: odolvlobo on February 11, 2014, 04:54:14 PM

Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 03:59:19 PM

True, but some people don't speak legalese nor do they want to spend an hour reading it.

Quote from: odolvlobo on February 11, 2014, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 02:50:20 PM

Found a more in-depth description of what they alleged happen...
-- snip --
Source: http://www.informationweek.com/security/security-monitoring/florida-sting-nabs-alleged-bitcoin-money-launderers/d/d-id/1113767

There is no reason to read articles about the court documents when you can read the court documents directly:

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 09, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

They are not written in legalese and they are fairly short -- not much longer than that article you linked to.

Every time there has been an arrest (DPR, Shrem, LBC traders) people say they don't speak legalese or some BS so they didn't read the actual criminal complaint.

These complaints are written at a ~8th grade reading comprehension level.

Lot of 7th Graders on this forum.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 03:59:19 PM

True, but some people don't speak legalese nor do they want to spend an hour reading it.

Quote from: odolvlobo on February 11, 2014, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 02:50:20 PM

Found a more in-depth description of what they alleged happen...
-- snip --
Source: http://www.informationweek.com/security/security-monitoring/florida-sting-nabs-alleged-bitcoin-money-launderers/d/d-id/1113767

There is no reason to read articles about the court documents when you can read the court documents directly:

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 09, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

They are not written in legalese and they are fairly short -- not much longer than that article you linked to. Also, the article never even mentions Special Agent Ponzi.

CoinBrokers

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True, but some people don't speak legalese nor do they want to spend an hour reading it.

Quote from: odolvlobo on February 11, 2014, 03:04:34 PM

Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 02:50:20 PM

Found a more in-depth description of what they alleged happen...
-- snip --
Source: http://www.informationweek.com/security/security-monitoring/florida-sting-nabs-alleged-bitcoin-money-launderers/d/d-id/1113767

There is no reason to read articles about the court documents when you can read the court documents directly:

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 09, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

odolvlobo

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Quote from: CoinBrokers on February 11, 2014, 02:50:20 PM

Found a more in-depth description of what they alleged happen...
-- snip --
Source: http://www.informationweek.com/security/security-monitoring/florida-sting-nabs-alleged-bitcoin-money-launderers/d/d-id/1113767

There is no reason to read articles about the court documents when you can read the court documents directly:

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 09, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza
http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

CoinBrokers

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I live pretty close to Miami and this was big news for anyone involved, especially the LocalBitcoins crowds that do alot of local business. I can't believe such a victimless-crime is being prosecuted, and now I'm sure they seized all his assets under the money laundering laws.

Found a more in-depth description of what they alleged happen...

Quote

According to court documents, the two men met again on February 4, with Kramer telling Reid that he wanted to convert $30,000 that he claimed to have earned by using credit card numbers obtained via the Target breach into bitcoins.

At that point, "Reid pulled out his Chrome (brand) laptop computer in order to observe the current bitcoin exchange rates," according to the charging documents, after which Kramer showed him a "flash roll" of $30,000 -- composed of $100 bills -- which Reid inspected for authenticity, before selling Kramer $25,000 in bitcoins, minus about $5,000 for his 20% commission. Reid allegedly also expressed interest in purchasing fake US passports and Florida driver's licenses from Kramer. Reid was arrested two days later.

According to court documents, Espinoza's bust went down the same way, with a Miami detective posing as the buyer, except that the suspect didn't believe the proffered roll of $100 bills was real. Instead, he requested that the buyer return with $20 bills. But the detective allegedly talked Espinoza into agreeing that if a Bank of America ATM accepted $2,400 of the cash for deposit into an account to which Espinoza had access, then he would convert the $30,000 into bitcoins. Less than an hour after first meeting the detective, Espinoza was arrested.

Source: http://www.informationweek.com/security/security-monitoring/florida-sting-nabs-alleged-bitcoin-money-launderers/d/d-id/1113767

Huh

ducatitalia

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If anyone finds updates or followups on these FL stories, please post so we can track progress and precedent.

yannis7777

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Quote from: Desmond.Paris on February 09, 2014, 11:57:11 AM

First, read the articles at these links:

http://www.morningnewsusa.com/three-bitcoin-traders-arrested-in-florida-238060.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-three-arrested-in-florida-over-bitcoin-money-laundering-charges-1960172

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390782/three-bitcoin-traders-arrested-in-florida-on-money-laundering-charges

Summary of those links is that the in Florida, the state decided to go after some localbitcoin traders for money laundering after setting up a live in person exchange.

Bitcoin is not cocaine. Bitcoin is not crack. It is not cannabis. It is not stolen guns with the serial numbers filed off.

There are a variety of forces that fear technology they do not understand.
There are a variety of forces that fear any technology that breakdowns international borders and barriers.

We, the people who support bitcoin, need to come out in the defense of the guys who were arrested in Florida and support bitcoin.

New technology has always intrigued and scared government. In the end they win, by finding a way to regulate it and finally accept it under their own (winner takes it all) terms.

darkmule

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Quote from: CryptoVortex on February 10, 2014, 02:36:44 AM

It will be interesting to see whether these cases go to trial. It seems plausible to me that they will want to use these cases, in which a conviction will be relatively straightforward, to establish a precedent.

Exactly. A plea deal would say they were just going after shutting down bad actors. Not offering a plea and going out of their way to prosecute would indicate they actually want to establish a precedent that simply selling Bitcoin is operating an unlicensed money transmitting business, so as to be able to pull in a wider dragnet at some later date.

I have to say that if the claims in the complaint are factually true (always a big if), these two clowns have done Bitcoin a grave disservice themselves. If someone comes up to you and says they want you to sell them Bitcoin so they can commit open crimes with it, and you facilitate it, YOU are a criminal yourself, you are not doing Bitcoin any favors, and THE GUY IS PROBABLY A COP.

Bitye West

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If US law enforcement keeps up this kind of bullshit, they will succeed in forcing the Cash->Bitcoin market underground.

If they crack down hard enough on LocalBitcoins, an equivalent darknet site will pop up where people send cash in mail to buy their coins.

CryptoVortex

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Quote from: russokai on February 10, 2014, 01:32:14 AM

Quote from: BTCisthefuture on February 09, 2014, 04:41:17 PM

You missed a key part of the story where the undercover agent told the bitcoin seller that he was going to use the bitcoins to purchase stolen credit card information.

That is the least important part of this case.

This may be the least important part of the story to you, but it is an absolutely critical part of the money laundering case. There is no way they would have indicted these guys for money laundering without that. Even if they had, the prosecutor would drop the charge to avoid the embarrassment of an acquittal or, worse, a dismissal.

However, I agree that this is not particularly relevant to the charge of running an unlicensed money transfer business. One thing that is unclear from these indictments is whether the sting was intended to uncover money laundering or just unlicensed money transfer.

It will be interesting to see whether these cases go to trial. It seems plausible to me that they will want to use these cases, in which a conviction will be relatively straightforward, to establish a precedent. If they truly just wanted to nab these two guys, then I would expect expect the defendants to plead out. The prosecutor might not offer them a reasonable plea deal if they want the precedent for future, murkier situations, such as cases connected to Silk Road.

darkmule

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Quote from: ?? on ??

If you read the criminal complaint, it states the seller was charging the Undercover cop 20% commission.

Perhaps they weren't dumb, just a bit blinded by 20% commission on a $30,000 deal.

Frankly, a vig like that sounds to me very indicative that defendant knew something was shady and was therefore charging extra. Who would agree to a fee that large who wasn't up to something (or in this case a cop).

russokai

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Quote from: ?? on ??

They approached them claiming to want to buy Bitcoin to commit outright crimes. But yes, New York is the most likely state to simply go right after Bitcoin sellers for no other reason than just selling Bitcoin. These Florida LEAs felt it necessary to do a sting. Otherwise, they'd have just arrested them the first time they showed up and sold a small about of Bitcoin.

No because they don't arrest people for breaking the law. They arrest them for breaking the law when they feel they have a strong enough case for a conviction. And a jury probably wouldn't convict someone for selling $301 of bitcoin.

My god some people are here are clueless...a lot of you.

russokai

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Quote from: BTCisthefuture on February 09, 2014, 04:41:17 PM

You missed a key part of the story where the undercover agent told the bitcoin seller that he was going to use the bitcoins to purchase stolen credit card information.

That is the least important part of this case.

shawshankinmate37927

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Quote from: odolvlobo on February 10, 2014, 12:18:19 AM

I laughed when I read "Special Agent Ponzi, United States Secret Service, determined that Michaelhack's fee was ...". Is that his real name? That's hilarious!

I assumed it was an alias to protect his true identity since he's involved in undercover sting operations.

Topic: State of Florida attacks Bitcoin - page 5. (Read 8213 times)