Taxation [discussion] - page 3. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Wilikon

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1001

minds.com/Wilikon

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 12:57:42 PM

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And those who don't agree with your idea of public education, should be put in a cage, right?

You have to pay for public education right now.

So you want Bitcoin to be a model to flee from this?
Public education was an important step for mankind, if you want to go back to the days where 90% of the people didn't had any school.
Then yeah... then I think you are stupid.

I came here to find smart people and here we go again. Calling names etc is not too smart, but you would not know any better...

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: WiW on April 25, 2013, 03:50:33 PM

I don't believe in total freedom. I believe that a person can either be violent or non violent. If someone wants to make a decision to be violent in order to prevent more violence in the future, they are being violent. I simply wish to not be violent and I will resist any attempt of violence by others. You now fall under the category of violent people.

The world is not black and white.

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If someone wants to make a decision to be violent in order to prevent more violence in the future

If I knew for certain it would do this, yes I would. But it's really easy to just think that you would know this, so I really do dislike the option.

But I appreciate that you want to be non-violent at all costs.

WiW

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 250

"The public is stupid, hence the public will pay"

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 03:46:56 PM

Quote from: WiW on April 25, 2013, 03:41:13 PM

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 03:33:07 PM

It's so easy to just put all the fault on the evil states.

I'm not a supporter of states per se, but I cannot see anarchy doing a good job for humanity.

So what are you gonna do about it? Force me to live under democracy? Sounds like a better job for humanity.

Ladies and gentlemen: Rationale no. 1 for coercion and use of force.
"You don't want my rules? You don't know what's good for you. I will force rules on you to make this world better for you!"

Present a concept that will not do this and will not end up in chaos.
Total freedom may seem like a good thing, but it's illusionary.
If you want to do something that's an adavantage for you, but an disadvantage for the other one, the stronger one will win.
That's not freedom at all, if you think about it.

I don't believe in total freedom. I believe that a person can either be violent or non violent. If someone wants to make a decision to be violent in order to prevent more violence in the future, they are being violent. I simply wish to not be violent and I will resist any attempt of violence by others. You now fall under the category of violent people.

tuliplover

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Quote from: WiW on April 25, 2013, 03:44:12 PM

Ultimately it's a very simple concept. Either you:
1) Decide what's good for others, and forcefully apply such life on them (violence)
2) Don't (non violence)

I prefer to never pick 1. You're saying "Well, 2 will never work so let's pick 1", or in other words "Well, good will never work so let's pick evil."

Except that statists think that forcing others to do something can be a good thing. And resisting that is bad.
They just want to make the world a better place, but you always get in the way. Maybe we should put you in a cage,
that would teach you how to behave.

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: WiW on April 25, 2013, 03:41:13 PM

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 03:33:07 PM

It's so easy to just put all the fault on the evil states.

I'm not a supporter of states per se, but I cannot see anarchy doing a good job for humanity.

So what are you gonna do about it? Force me to live under democracy? Sounds like a better job for humanity.

Ladies and gentlemen: Rationale no. 1 for coercion and use of force.
"You don't want my rules? You don't know what's good for you. I will force rules on you to make this world better for you!"

Present a concept that will not do this and will not end up in chaos.
Total freedom may seem like a good thing, but it's illusionary.
If you want to do something that's an adavantage for you, but an disadvantage for the other one, the stronger one will win.
That's not freedom at all, if you think about it.

WiW

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 250

"The public is stupid, hence the public will pay"

Ultimately it's a very simple concept. Either you:
1) Decide what's good for others, and forcefully apply such life on them (violence)
2) Don't (non violence)

I prefer to never pick 1. You're saying "Well, 2 will never work so let's pick 1", or in other words "Well, good will never work so let's pick evil."

If you're gonna pick evil, you better have a REALLY GOOD excuse for it, or else I'm gonna put you in the same basket along with warmongers and violent criminals. The onus of proof is on you. Prove to me that the violence you're applying is less than would otherwise occur and you'll be off the hook. Meanwhile, I'll be sitting here not applying violence on anyone.

WiW

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 250

"The public is stupid, hence the public will pay"

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 03:33:07 PM

It's so easy to just put all the fault on the evil states.

I'm not a supporter of states per se, but I cannot see anarchy doing a good job for humanity.

So what are you gonna do about it? Force me to live under democracy? Sounds like a better job for humanity.

Ladies and gentlemen: Rationale no. 1 for coercion and use of force.
"You don't want my rules? You don't know what's good for you. I will force rules on you to make this world better for you!"

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: WiW on April 25, 2013, 03:25:38 PM

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 03:11:22 PM

It's not about bluffing them, it's about cooperating instead of fighting.
Sure we could fight, but do we really want a war?

If USA and Russia shared your opinion, we would have a nuclear wasteland right now.

Again, cooperating means taxing by force. I understand you love this monopoly on money which supports the monopoly on violence. But when we're talking about a system that allows you to escape that (bitcoin), you're making a pretty weak argument (let others make decisions with your money). The government can and WILL try to choke bitcoin, but of the two I'm pretty sure math will win gunpowder.

All wars are funded by taxes. Every single one. So please don't go talking about nuclear wastelands.

It's so easy to just put all the fault on the evil states.

I'm not a supporter of states per se, but I cannot see anarchy doing a good job for humanity.

WiW

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 250

"The public is stupid, hence the public will pay"

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 03:11:22 PM

It's not about bluffing them, it's about cooperating instead of fighting.
Sure we could fight, but do we really want a war?

If USA and Russia shared your opinion, we would have a nuclear wasteland right now.

Again, cooperating means taxing by force. I understand you love this monopoly on money which supports the monopoly on violence. But when we're talking about a system that allows you to escape that (bitcoin), you're making a pretty weak argument (let others make decisions with your money). The government can and WILL try to choke bitcoin, but of the two I'm pretty sure math will win gunpowder.

All wars are funded by taxes. Every single one. So please don't go talking about nuclear wastelands.

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

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So you're saying we can bluff the state? We'll design our own tax system to be fair (remove the monopoly of money from the state) and they'll just be all like "Oh, it's okay, they're already collecting taxes and it's not us. We'll just step aside then..."

The state will fight for their abusive monopoly on money either way, so I say if you want my money to work on a public school or road, convince me that it's for my own good and I'll cooperate. How about we start off by developing 3D printed weapons and taking away the monopoly of violence from the state?

I have no intention of cooperating with terrorists and so I am not open to any discussions of system-wide abuse and theft. Drop the name taxes and call it kickstarter and you'll have a better chance of getting people on board.

It's not about bluffing them, it's about cooperating instead of fighting.
Sure we could fight, but do we really want a war?

If USA and Russia shared your opinion, we would have a nuclear wasteland right now.

WiW

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 250

"The public is stupid, hence the public will pay"

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 02:59:36 PM

Free will to cooperate and include this in the client to accomplish a fair and easy regulation, before the states come and force it down on us.
Because when they do, it will be everything but fair and easy.

Maybe they will enforce laws control over the internet, tax fraud is a great excuse to do so.
Maybe they will try to crush Bitcoin by banning the exchanges.
Things like that could be avoided.

So you're saying we can bluff the state? We'll design our own tax system to be fair (remove the monopoly of money from the state) and they'll just be all like "Oh, it's okay, they're already collecting taxes and it's not us. We'll just step aside then..."

The state will fight for their abusive monopoly on money either way, so I say if you want my money to work on a public school or road, convince me that it's for my own good and I'll cooperate. How about we start off by developing 3D printed weapons and taking away the monopoly of violence from the state?

I have no intention of cooperating with terrorists and so I am not open to any discussions of system-wide abuse and theft. Drop the name taxes and call it kickstarter and you'll have a better chance of getting people on board.

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: WiW on April 25, 2013, 02:54:03 PM

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 01:50:11 PM

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If it's really better for everyone, why do you have to do it by force?

What is this force you are talking about? Never mentioned one.
I'm talking about doing this out of free will.

Oh, great. I thought you were talking about TAXES. You know, where you are coerced to pay an organization that has a monopoly on violence and money, and if you don't, you will be put in a cage by goons with guns.

We're talking about free will. Well, in that case you're just talking about free market cooperation. Why then did you open this thread again?

Free will to cooperate and include this in the client to accomplish a fair and easy regulation, before the states come and force it down on us.
Because when they do, it will be everything but fair and easy.

Maybe they will enforce laws control over the internet, tax fraud is a great excuse to do so.
Maybe they will try to crush Bitcoin by banning the exchanges.
Things like that could be avoided.

WiW

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 250

"The public is stupid, hence the public will pay"

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 01:50:11 PM

Quote

If it's really better for everyone, why do you have to do it by force?

What is this force you are talking about? Never mentioned one.
I'm talking about doing this out of free will.

Oh, great. I thought you were talking about TAXES. You know, where you are coerced to pay an organization that has a monopoly on violence and money, and if you don't you will be put in a cage by goons with guns.

We're talking about free will. Well, in that case you're just talking about free market cooperation.

Why then did you open this thread again?

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on April 25, 2013, 02:13:57 PM

Calm down guys. "Bitcoin & Taxes" problem can't be solved by democratic way, someone has to decide and force the others.

Sadly, I think you right.
We would be better off, if we could change that.

Even a democracy needs to force the minority though. No way to avoid this.

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Taxation is not the downfall of bitcoin, bitcoin is the downfall of taxation.

But when I read lines like this, I get the feeling we are in for a lot of this force...
I just hope Bitcoin will survive it.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Calm down guys. "Bitcoin & Taxes" problem can't be solved by democratic way, someone has to decide and force the others.

Btw, here about cryptocurrencies and taxes - http://qubic.boards.net/thread/6/solution-biggest-disadvantage-bitcoin

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: nikkisnowe on April 25, 2013, 02:03:17 PM

If bitcoin were to rise to the level that taxes were being affected, there would simply be more ammunition to impose a VAT taxation structure. More emphasis would be placed on such a sales tax system and more emphasis would be placed on businesses to comply with the tax system. The bitcoin community doesn't need to make any form of concession regarding taxation. It's not their place. Business will still be required to file taxes accordingly.
While some in this forum argue that businesses will simply fail to comply since they retain bitcoin themselves, I doubt any real businesses going to risk an audit and subsequent penalties associated with it.

I guess this could happen, it just would be so much easier to include it in the system.
Less unnecessary work -> more work that can be done on other things.

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You don't have to be alone without a state. If you want strength in numbers, then freely associate with many others.

Yes, but most those groups have some kind of taxation, unless they don't have to spend money. Yearly payment to be in there and those things.

Glad we are back to discussing instead of hating.

Traktion

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: Birdy on April 25, 2013, 01:43:14 PM

Quote from: WiW on April 25, 2013, 01:36:46 PM

Hey Birdy buddy, you sound dumb.

You want a tax, which literally means "let's pool our money together and decide together what to do with it". But you're dumb, about as dumb as a monkey. I don't want to pool my money with a monkey and then negotiate with him what to do with it. What if he wants to eat the money? Or throw it away? Or build bombs?

Screw you, you can take my money from my cold dead hands.

P.S. nothing personal, I don't know you I'm just trying to make a point.

P.S.S. Pro-tip: never assume that new technology has to adapt to old folks like you. Usually new technology presents a new world which is different than the old.

I was expecting a lot of resistance to this idea, but I didn't expect that amount of hate.

States do exist for a reason, because you are stronger, if you are not alone.
Despite all the negative things happening in those we still have states, because there is some benefit to it.

I'm not an "old folk" btw.

You don't have to be alone without a state. If you want strength in numbers, then freely associate with many others.

nikkisnowe

member

Activity: 105

Merit: 10

If bitcoin were to rise to the level that taxes were being affected, there would simply be more ammunition to impose a VAT taxation structure. More emphasis would be placed on such a sales tax system and more emphasis would be placed on businesses to comply with the tax system. The bitcoin community doesn't need to make any form of concession regarding taxation. It's not their place. Business will still be required to file taxes accordingly.
While some in this forum argue that businesses will simply fail to comply since they retain bitcoin themselves, I doubt any real businesses going to risk an audit and subsequent penalties associated with it.

Traktion

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Voting is just mob rule. It's a majority imposing their will on a minority. As I heard elsewhere, it is the original 51% attack! Wink

Anything desirable can be achieved through voluntary association. If people want it, they will pursue it.

If it helps, think of the state as a big cooperative, with a non-voluntary subscription model. Just change the latter to voluntary and let people figure things out for themselves (over time).

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Topic: Taxation [discussion] - page 3. (Read 4042 times)