Technological unemployment is (almost) here - page 33.

Murwa

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Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 10:38:33 PM

Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

The very first thing Russian revolutionists did was .... gave away land to peasants into private ownership ..... they just redistributed it from wealthy aristocracy. Thats why revolution was so popular there and that why i meant it is bound to happen again , history just love to repeat it-self.. And only later when Stalin was in power things went bad and Russia was transformed into state capitalism

And if you think soviet russia was marketless ... think again oh and also learn history because your knowledge sucks. World did not and does not work like you are being though on free-market websites ...

Quote from: giantdragon on December 20, 2013, 11:16:01 PM

In the post above I have foreseen that countries may split into .....free market

This is impossible such a thing never existed , doest not exists and will not exists due to nature of the market it-self.

Murwa

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What did i say about delusion of free-marketer Huh

?

Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 03:01:43 PM

Well, it's a good thing we know how this anger always ends. They will just end up with another Cuba, Venezuela, and Soviet Union. Hopefully I will be able to see it far enough ahead to get myself, and all my money, out of their country before that happens.

* Good ( as in person defending invisible hand ) always wins.
* Absolutely nothing can go wrong in an age of weapons of mass destruction. Invisible hand will protects the believers.

Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 03:06:07 PM

Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!

Enemies of the invisible hand are :
* Are mindless zombies th iat will just run into the bullet
* Can't organize

How about "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the bourgeoisies and take the machines ??

Cant comprehed such a scenario ?? Oh i forgot , belivers in invisible hand will be protected !!!

giantdragon

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@Rassah, it is an endless dispute! History shows that both parties will never agree which point of view is correct and what is fair.
In the post above I have foreseen that countries may split into socialist, free market and technophobic blocks (even whole countries can fall apart - Catalonia, Quebec and Scotland are signs of the coming trend). This is inevitable if no action taken to address technological unemployment problem!

Rassah

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Quote from: giantdragon on December 20, 2013, 06:24:59 PM

Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 04:52:34 PM

Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

You can find millions of people who think it was good! Just try to read opinions on anti-"laissez faire" sites. Wink

Or I can read opinions of people who lived in USSR, or now live in Cuba, Venezuela, China, Iran, and North Korea. Well, maybe not North Korea.

Quote from: giantdragon on December 20, 2013, 06:24:59 PM

As capital owner can be the state, workers' union, community etc who will manage production and fairly redistribute profit among workers, not pay dividends to private shareholders.

But the private shareholders were the ones who put the money together to get the company those workers are working in started in the first place. And the only reason they gave the money to form the company, and thus give those workers jobs, was because they were promised returns or dividends from that company.
Does fair distribution mean much higher amounts go to the people at the top who are running the system, and much smaller to the lowest workers who are just watching the machines, or cleaning the floors, or pressing a button all day?

Quote from: giantdragon on December 20, 2013, 06:24:59 PM

Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 04:52:34 PM

Who is it that decides what is fair, what is not, who contributed, and who did not?

It probably will be workers' unions.

How do the workers in the union know what level of skill is required to run the company and how much that person should earn? And what if their "fair" wages end up with them not being able to hire anyone to manage the company?

giantdragon

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Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 04:52:34 PM

Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

You can find millions of people who think it was good! Just try to read opinions on anti-"laissez faire" sites. Wink

Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 04:52:34 PM

I would argue that it's unfair for workers to get ANY product, because without the capital owners, no product would be created in the first place (and my argument would also be ridiculous).

Your argument is stupid! As capital owner can be the state, workers' union, community etc who will manage production and fairly redistribute profit among workers, not pay dividends to private shareholders.

Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 04:52:34 PM

Who is it that decides what is fair, what is not, who contributed, and who did not?

It probably will be workers' unions.

Rassah

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Quote from: giantdragon on December 20, 2013, 03:46:42 PM

If you own means of production, real estate or any other physical capital in this country it can be expropriated, as well as rights on virtual capital (patents and copyrights) simply voided.
Bitcoin won't save your property in case of revolution! Grin

I don't support patents and copyrights, either, but that's true about the rest. And we all know the outcome. Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

Quote from: giantdragon on December 20, 2013, 03:46:42 PM

The problem is "technological inequality" caused by automation and unfair redistribution of the product they create in favor of capital owners instead of workers, not the machines itself!

Why is it unfair? Should workers get more product, even if they don't contribute as much to its production? I would argue that it's unfair for workers to get ANY product, because without the capital owners, no product would be created in the first place (and my argument would also be ridiculous).
Who is it that decides what is fair, what is not, who contributed, and who did not?

giantdragon

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Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 03:01:43 PM

Hopefully I will be able to see it far enough ahead to get myself, and all my money, out of their country before that happens.

Actually, thanks to bitcoin, even an angry revolution won't help them. At least when the russians raided the royal palace and the homes of all the wealthy, they could coonfistake tons od gold, money, and other valuables. Now they will just kill people without any access to their bitcoin passwords Tongue

If you own means of production, real estate or any other physical capital in this country it can be expropriated, as well as rights on virtual capital (patents and copyrights) simply voided.
Bitcoin won't save your property in case of revolution! Grin

Quote from: Rassah on December 20, 2013, 03:06:07 PM

Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!

Socialist ≠ Luddite! The problem is "technological inequality" caused by automation and unfair redistribution of the product they create in favor of capital owners instead of workers, not the machines itself!

Rassah

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Quote from: ltc_foundry on December 20, 2013, 12:43:15 PM

Either automation frees us from labor, or the labor will tear down the machines. It's as simple as that.

You are a poor worker. You are your buddies are forced to toil at machines that manufacture basics like food, clothing, and transportation appliances, and more discretionary things, like electoronics, communication equipment, and various other tools.

Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!

Rassah

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Quote from: Murwa on December 20, 2013, 07:37:50 AM

Quote from: Rassah on December 18, 2013, 05:23:07 PM

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Yeah, I don't think so.

You and the like. Market fanatics ... The anger will be channeled somewhere depending on the political situation. My bet is on you.

Well, it's a good thing we know how this anger always ends. They will just end up with another Cuba, Venezuela, and Soviet Union. Hopefully I will be able to see it far enough ahead to get myself, and all my money, out of their country before that happens.

Actually, thanks to bitcoin, even an angry revolution won't help them. At least when the russians raided the royal palace and the homes of all the wealthy, they could coonfistake tons od gold, money, and other valuables. Now they will just kill people without any access to their bitcoin passwords Tongue

ltc_foundry

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20-30 years from now, with automation having rendered entire classes of workers obsolete, with the resultant gains having been gobbled by the same actors who have dominated global commerce these last 80+ years - I think we'll find then what the end game really looks like.

There are no free markets - and never will be. The idea that market forces will prevent revolution is so naïve I have trouble that anyone actually believes it, and yet... here we are.

Either automation frees us from labor, or the labor will tear down the machines. It's as simple as that.

Murwa

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Quote from: Rassah on December 18, 2013, 05:23:07 PM

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Yeah, I don't think so.

You and the like. Market fanatics ... The anger will be channeled somewhere depending on the political situation. My bet is on you.

Just few years before WW2 no one ever expected next things in history to happen the way they did.
Today is peace tomorrow blood is flowing in the streets.

Murwa

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Quote from: kjj on December 18, 2013, 08:08:48 PM

Quote

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck."

Nice BS anecdote will absolutely no cognitive value.

Not to mention pathetic attempt to make people submit to your values because of the "invisible all powerful force" ....

kjj

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Quote

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck."

giantdragon

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Quote from: Rassah on December 18, 2013, 05:23:07 PM

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Most likely the anger will be targeted on capital owners, but in some technophobic conservative communities may be also on programmers!

Rassah

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Quote from: Murwa on December 18, 2013, 08:26:07 AM

Quote from: Rassah on December 17, 2013, 11:17:18 PM

Yes, and they will starve and die. Or become desperate enough to survive to figure out how to survive. So what?

And you believe those mases of people will just stand and watch how invisible hand of the free market dictate who lives and who dies ?? Talking about religion and fanaticism ....

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Yeah, I don't think so.

Murwa

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Quote from: giantdragon on December 17, 2013, 11:35:21 PM

Nope! They will prefer to die from the bullet with AK-47 in hands rather than from hunger! Grin

It is funny delusion within free-marketers.

People that will be opposing invisible hand.

* Are mindless zombies th iat will just run into the bullet
* Can't organize
* Does not have access to weapons themselves.
* Good ( as in person defending invisible hand ) always wins.
* Absolutely nothing can go wrong in an age of weapons of mass destruction. Invisible hand will protects the believers.

Murwa

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Quote from: Rassah on December 17, 2013, 11:17:18 PM

Yes, and they will starve and die. Or become desperate enough to survive to figure out how to survive. So what?

And you believe those mases of people will just stand and watch how invisible hand of the free market dictate who lives and who dies ?? Talking about religion and fanaticism ....

Well you are only asking for another communist revolution because genetic reincarnation of Lenin will be just a matter of time .... mark my words.

giantdragon

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Quote from: Rassah on December 17, 2013, 11:17:18 PM

Yes, and they will starve and die. Or become desperate enough to survive to figure out how to survive. So what?

Nope! They will prefer to die from the bullet with AK-47 in hands rather than from hunger! Grin

Rassah

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Quote from: giantdragon on December 17, 2013, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: Rassah on December 17, 2013, 05:56:16 PM

Uh.. yes you can. Creativity is a skill you get better at with practice. And I don't mean graphic design, I mean inventing and improving the way things work. Manual, algorithmic labor has been replaced with robots a long time ago. Now it's all about doing custom inventive stuff that robots can't handle (even simple stuff like grabbing weirdly shaped lettuce leaves to place on a round bun)

Think realistically - most people who are capable on creativity already do this work. From billions of workers replaced by robots only few percents (or even fraction of percent) will be successfull enough to earn on living with creativity!

Yes, and they will starve and die. Or become desperate enough to survive to figure out how to survive. So what?

Realpra

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In my mind the core function of humans is to be intelligent.

To survive AI we must invest in biotech and bioengineering to improve ourselves. DNA computing is supposed to be a possible future in computing and we have it in our bodies already aswell as a brain that has not reached its full potential yet.

Robots may be coming for the cashiers job, but how far are robots from Einstein level humans? More CPU does not necessarily mean smarter, the algorithms used matter and ours have 4 billion years of evolution behind them.

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