Topic: The Bitcoin Paradox - a Simple Online Scam Honored as Deity - page 2. (Read 1078 times)

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

You're supposed to explain HOW holders can benefit without new buyers - investors, not talk about concepts. Try again. P.S. "A payment" is a new buyer entering the scheme. The question is how holders can benefit without new buyers entering the scheme.

Yes you can benefit from it since it is NOT a storage of wealth like so many idiots in this forum believe, but it is a decentralized currency that you can use to send payments.

Dollar is the name or word for debt. Debt is an economic resource. You can replace words all you like but you can't create economic resources in that way.

Well, you can say or think whatever you want about me. But people will still be unable to benefit within the Satoshi's system like they are benefiting within the banking system. Just imagine. All that energy spent for mining, all that economic resources invested into the Satoshi's system. The result? The holders have zero economic resources from which they can benefit, which is why they are at the mercy of new investors who voluntarily decide whether or not to enter the system and bring in the economic resources to save the holders. Crazy, isn't it? Instead of acknowledging this important fact, your are rather playing semantics on the forum and engaging in ad hominem attacks. How pathetic is that?

Here is a take on "new investors" entering a "scheme", as you put it.

Let's imagine we live on an island in the south pacific, that has not been discovered, maybe off the coast of the Pitcairn Islands.  But now we have discovered the rest of the world, and so we wish to join their economy to get stuff we have never seen before.  So apparently the rest of the world tells us on the island that we need "dollars".

We wish to get a satellite phone, and a satellite connected computer, but first we need to get these newly discovered "dollars".  We don't currently have "dollars", but we have lots of coconuts.

We trade some of our coconuts for these "dollars". ... Now we can buy that new satellite phone. ... After trading our coconuts for "dollars", and trading our "dollars" for a new phone, guess what has happened?  ... We have just entered this new "scheme" of "dollars" as a new "investor".

(now just replace every word "dollar" in the comment above with the word "bitcoins", and you'll understand PrivacyG's comment)

Translation of the above: "I don't have any other arguments, I desperately need you to shut up, 'cause I know I'm right".

You ignored the entire point. So, I am going to make it easy for you by asking you one simple question: can anyone in the bitcoin scheme benefit from the scheme without new investors entering the scheme?

It is explained to you a dozen times already in this and previous topic. I won't repeat it again. You are free to think whatever you want.
You are fooling yourself. That's why you are so pissed off. You know that you invested economic resources into the scheme, and no such resources exist in the scheme. That's why you desperately need new investors otherwise you are unable to benefit. And that's what pisses you off.

At this point I think you are trolling.

Let us say I bought an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  I gave them cash, they gave me Bitcoin.  Why have I been fooled?

Let us say I sold an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  They gave me cash, I gave them Bitcoin.  Why have they been fooled?

Now onto the second quote.  You are telling me purchasing a piece of metal from a hardware store is a scam because they swapped Dollars for that piece of metal and now they can only benefit from it by finding a new investor.  What the heck?

You can purchase a TON of goods DIRECTLY using Bitcoin.  The company accepts Bitcoin, you get the goods.  Corporations did this a while ago, some of them still do it.  Steam did it.  Microsoft did it.  eBay is looking forward to doing it.  These are all just names out of my short memory, there are many more.  Look at El Salvador and tell me how this is a scam?

If I purchase a t-shirt off eBay using Bitcoin DIRECTLY, where is this 'investor that needs to exist for me to benefit off my Bitcoin'?  Answer is nowhere because, as I keep repeating, this is all just a fantasy of yours and nothing more.

In this situation, most antrepreneurs are scammers.  The local grocery store is scamming you because they can only benefit off their food by finding victims who voluntarily purchase from their store.

Admit it.  Your conspiracy theory is very flawed.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

Except for the part where that's complete and utter horseshit and the real and tangible benefits we have all experienced have been explained to you.  You're just an ignorant fuckwit with zero comprehension.  We tell you repeatedly what the benefits are, yet you simply ignore us and repeat your nonsense claims that it's all entirely fictional because you're too gormless to understand it correctly.

You are the one who has been tricked because you want to defend the system where just about every nation on Earth right now is experiencing massive inflation because the people in charge cannot be trusted to maintain the economy responsibly.  You are the one who is entirely beholden to the decisions made by central banks and governments.  You have no control over your environment.

We are the ones who have made an informed decision to try an alternative to that.  We can opt in or out as we please.  We are in control of our money and, more crucially, we're collectively responsible for our monetary policy.  If we don't like the rules in Bitcoin, we even have the power to fork ourselves off the network and start a brand new currency of our own.  You couldn't dream of having power like that in fiat.  And, once again, some of us are quite happy with our choices, thank you.

You might fool a few gullible newbies, but you're not fooling us.

Why isn't this true for fiat currency, again?

All four of you are making one critical error in your reasoning. Namely you falsely assume that you benefit from the units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million") that you call "bitcoin". But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them. You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme. Economic resource are things from which people can benefit without new investors. For e g. - gift cards. When issued and sold to people, gift cards provide benefit to people at redemption. So, whoever holds a gift card is not required to find a new buyer to benefit from the card. Another example. Debt in the banking system that the holders of banknotes or deposits own. They benefit when that debt is paid, as I already explained in this topic. So again, they don't need to find new buyers to benefit. Capital. From capital people benefit because capital produces goods and services. Again, no new buyers required. Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

However, from the Satoshi's units attributed to online addresses, no one can benefit. Which is why the influx of new investors is needed. Just like in all investment scams. So, try to accept that Satoshi's tricked you, instead of trying to find countless excuses for his scheme.

I have stayed a long time, I think, since around 2011, and I don't feel bad about the bag I am holding.  It does rather well for me. I suspect it'll keep doing well for me. ...  The "resource" that you think does not exist, and that appears to elude and confound you is of bitcoin's "utility". 

Here are some examples:

I have noticed how well others have done with their "bags", and here I mean the people on the bitcoin beach, in El Salvador, or the people in Venezuela, and how it has helped them survive the crushing inflation of their Bolivar.  Or maybe for all of those that were paying high fees for remittances, that can now send bitcoin for pennies, or for a dollar depending on the fee. ... I even heard once that someone (laszlo on May 22, 2010) was able to get a couple of pizzas for some bitcoin.  ... The list of these types of examples, of bitcoin's "utility", of how bitcoin is helping, appears to be growing all the time.

I can tell that you have upgraded your arguments since the last time you were posting here, but these are still falling flat.

It now seems that your catchphrase is that bitcoin is a "scam", but repeating this over and over without a realistic explanation is not going to convince anyone here.

But, you're the only one who sees no resources. You've limited yourself purposefully. I use bitcoin everyday. I purchase stuff with bitcoin; gift cards, servers, other web services, premium features etc., no matter what you think of it, I show you the exact opposite with my actions. And it's not just me. There are thousands of merchants willing to accept it as a currency. All these things demonstrate how incorrect you are.

And that's because it's useful. It provides things you can't otherwise have.

Don't do him good, that's a meat and drink for him. The moment you enter, demand rises, but supply remains the same.

Show me an asset that allows you to move value or, for your theory's sake, 'fake numbers' from me to you, which is now an event verifiable by anyone willing to verify its legitimacy, in a fully decentralized, transparent and uncensored way.

All I see is a theory.  No proof of anything you say.

Tell me more about it.  How do I benefit from your entrance in the system?

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Regards,
PrivacyG

Also wrong.

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

Do you have problems with understanding the word: 'ultimately"? Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme. That is by definition. The so called bitcoin holders, own no resources in the scheme, from which they could benefit within the scheme. So, ultimately they will be left holding the bag.

That doesn't sound right either.  I've been in since 2013 and I'm doing just fine, thanks.  And the people who got in before I did are doing even better.   That's the complete and total opposite of what you're suggesting.  It's been an incredibly shrewd investment for those who had the sense to get in early and also had the fortitude to stick around this long.

Do you deliberately make your posts sound as though you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Or does it just come naturally? 

The units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million), attributed to online addresses, are stored, not the economic resources. That's why the holders of these units need the resources from new investors to benefit. Otherwise, they are doomed. But ultimately, the holders will be left holding the bag. Just like in every investment scam - the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.