Topic: The Bitcoin Paradox - a Simple Online Scam Honored as Deity - page 4. (Read 1078 times)

You're again obsessed with the forum user. Which is a typical behavior of those who lack rational arguments. I have refuted your misconceptions about fiat money. And demonstrated that people can exist the Satoshi's system only through the contribution from new investors like in all investment scams. Given you cannot refute that, you're engaging in ad hominem attacks.

I may chose to believe this to an extent but we need to clarify that not every cryptocurrency aside bitcoin is an illicit project or bad investment, even though we have a good number of the ones in in disguise as a coin but in real sense they utilize the opportunity to safely hide under such in other to suave away user's investment asset along the way, that is why running a background check on any project or crypto coin is very important, knowing who were those behind a specific coin, but in other to save the long and unnecessary stress bitcoin is the best investment over times.

You ignore the outline of my parable which refutes your basic(repeated) argument.

Obviously, you are the typical person who is too comfortable with the conventional centralized financial system that you will not accept the new system. Let's end your trying to convince people here, bitcoin is a scam and we love being scammed by satoshi. period

You cannot hide the bitcoin scam by putting the finger on forum users. Why is it that you so vehemently defend this scam? I know. Because you need other people's funds to benefit. Within the system there's nothing to benefit from, so you need new suckers to enter the system. But unfortunately the number of those is always limited. The scam will come to its end eventually. Instead of being obsessed with forum users, try to accept that majority of people never benefit from investment scams.

Ok, it is confirmed... (Look at his post history) ...he is either a Fiat Banking Shill or just a butthurt Troll that lost some money on Crypto currencies and now turns his anger to the Bitcoin community to spread FUD about Bitcoin and Crypto currencies.

People should not even respond to his threads anymore, because you will simply feed this trolls behavior. We (Bitcoin enthusiasts) will never convince people like this to see the real truth, because their agenda to support a failing Fiat financial system is too strong.

You only see these trolls coming out when the Bitcoin (Crypto) prices are dropping.... because their misinformation are more effective when there is doubt and uncertainty and Fear. (FUD)  

Debt to holders of banknotes or deposits is paid in goods services and labor. Literally every day by borrowers in order for these borrowersso to be able to reply their loan. It's a simple, legitimate borrowing business supervised by the banks. People invests goods services and labor in deposits or banknotes when they are put into circulation with loans. And then, goods, services and labor are returned to people when deposits and banknotes are withdrawn for loan repayments. So, people who hold banknotes and deposis benefit from within the banking system.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Try to understand that digital assets can also have value.... because "Assets can be grouped into two major classes: tangible assets and intangible assets.  Intangible assets include goodwill, copyrights, trademarks, patents, computer programs and financial assets, including financial investments, bonds, and stocks." Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset

A skin for a gun in "Counter Strike" has value to a gamer and for him it is a digital asset..... In Bitcoin the digital asset is the Bitcoin token.  

I don't think anything. I am just describing the scam. People are tricked into the bitcoin scam by claims they are inventing in an asset. But no asset exists in the system. An asset is a resource that provides benefit to those that own it. This resource can be a company which benefits people by producing goods and services. It can be a commodity which benefits people via consumption or as an intermediate good used to produce a final good or finished product. It can be fiat money (debt) which benefits people at debt settlement as explained in the OP. By holding numbers in the Satoshi's system people own no such resource. They own no asset. They cannot benefit from within the system. Which is why they need the contribution of funds from new investors to benefit. That's a textbook definition of a scam. When something like that is presented to the public as an asset that's called scamming people.

For this discussion the only important thing is that debt is an asset that at the time of settlement benefits those that invested in it. Just like this is the case with all assets - they provide benefit to people.

Here, in the bitcoin scam, the term "asset" is misused to create the illusion that there's an asset in the system. When in reality only numbers are attached to the addresses. When you use the term "transactions" this is also a misuse. Because transactions happen with assets. Attaching numbers to virtual address is not transferring asset. It is creating the illusion of asset quantity. It is scamming people.

See? You don't care what other people think. You've told it enough times that you can't imagine a world without debt; without middlemen granting loans, borrowers etc., but this community shows you that this world of free trade and freedom of choice exists. There can be transaction settlement, exchanging, trading without debt. Besides, transaction establishment existed long before debt became a thing.  

As far as I've read, there's completely nothing irrational from NotATether's post, but it's nullified, because it doesn't encroach the way you understand money.

Debt isn't a bad thing, by default. Borrowing money can surely have a positive impact, and there should be. Debt redistributes money into the economy, incentivizes people to become productive, works as an investment whether that's from private companies or from the government itself, helps people acquire a house to live etc., but you're naive the least if you deny the downsides. It's an instrument that causes asset bubbles, impinges on the low-income groups due to high interest policy, leads to bankruptcy, causes inflation etc.

Why do you always associate bitcoin benefits in nominal terms? And why do you always think bitcoin owners/recipients are investors?

If I'm a shoe store owner who doesn't like bitcoin but sees that most of my customers are bitcoiners, I can adopt it into my store. Does that mean I aim to make nominal benefit with that number? No, I just use the number to attract customers to be more consumptive. No new investors in my store story.

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

Now, you can either accept the facts I have just described. Or you can continue to use misconceptions about banks to try to rationalize yourself the scam you're participating in.

Welcome to the forum, anti-bitcoin trolls like you who are hell bent to drag bitcoin down pop up from time to time(usually when the price of bitcoin is dropping). anyway, I hope you enjoy your Discussion with our members here in the forum. just so you know you are welcome to come back once you got your fill of trolling and left the forum. 

Then you clearly have not studdied how foreign currency exchange works. How about educating yourself before misinforming others.

I have, because I've been in other countries.

Now when one person exchanges one currency for another that is technically buying the first currency using the second currency, or selling the second currency to buy the first currency. The value of the currency being bought is backed by the currency that is being sold, on the basis that it has value.

That's why all governments in the world (except for one*) are holding US Dollars in their central bank reserves, in addition to other priceless items such as gold.  Because thy are giving a value to the US Dollar, and thus ts value backs the value of their own cryptocurrency.

*The eception is the US government itself, whose dollars are backed by, well, nothing, ever since they abandoned the gold standard in the 70s.

---

You, as a person who seems very knowledgeable in how economies work (otherwise it would make your essay sound ridiculous), must already know something about how modern banking works, and that is Banks do not keep adequate reserves of  their own cash to back the numbers in their bank accounts.

This is called fractional bannking (and it has taken more than one bank to bankruptcy)

Now, it would be absurd to say that the money you have in the bank is written off just because the bank has no assets to back your bank accoount balance with[/b]

But this is not the case, instead your money is backed by the mere assurance from the bank that they will pay you back your money on a later date (It is similar to the US government's dollars being backed by nothing, when some country wants to buy dollars for their central bank).

---

How this relates to cryptocurrencies: All cryptos are a form of currency (otherwise you would not be launching this rant). that can be bought with  foreign currency and other types of cryptos. However, the value of this crypto can be confidently be stated as being backed by  the foreign currency used to buy it. Why? because the foreign currency stored as  a profit in crypto exchanges (most of it) is the  culmunative value of all the crypto currency that has been bought on that exxchange.

Add this culmunative value of exch exchange, and you get the total value for exch cryptocurrency.

That's why crypto goes up one day and down another day ("like numbers", because behind those "numbers" - i.e. electronic money which you believe (like bank accounts) to be zero). Because behind those "numbers" [actually units of currency] are traders on some exchange selling or buying it on some exchange.

All property can be destroyed by natural or governmental causes. So, what is your point? What that has to do with this scam?

Tickets can become nothing. Except if you're God and can turn them into wine. All you can do with them is find new suckers who believe the concert will take place. Just like in all scams.

All fun and games until you get a legitimate Cyprus bailout and find out your money aren't really your property. They were yours for as long as they allowed you to take them.


The moment tickets become goods, services, entertainment, is the moment the concert takes place. We're both standing at it, just that you have fingers in your ears, trying to tell people you don't hear anything.
This conversation is pointless.

I am not denying the fact that you're participating in the exchange of the tickets for a concert since 2009. But you're denying the facts that the concret never took place.

And stop with this nonsense about banks. Banks produce debt, evidence it with deposits or banknotes, borrowers then collect goods, services or labour from people with those deposits or banknotes, and finally return goods services or labour back to people via loan repayments. It's a legitimate borrowing business. Creating debt and settling it. It has nothing to do with the Satoshi's scam. So stop with those nonsensical analogies.

I know you try to ignore the facts, but the concert is taking place since 2009.
When I imagine something, it's only in my mind. When I pay someone and he can buy physical goods with it, there's no imagining anything.
Guess what, when you send a bank transfer, it's also done virtually on a bank's server, just that there's no backup, no blockchain. If the server catches fire, your transaction disappears. When the bank defaults you don't get the money. When a country goes into war and limits withdrawals you don't get the money.

You did nothing of the sort. You just participated in the system tha creates the illusion of asset by attributing the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity to virtual addresses. Or, to use your analogy, you just participated in the exchanging of the tickets for a concert that will never take place.

Cheap philosophy. Tell me, what is the institution, organization, person or entity that ows you something when you hold a number next to your address? Well, none. Debt is in the banking system, recorded in the balance sheet of the banks, backed by mortgages and other liens, and paid by borrowers in goods, services or labour to holders of banknotes or deposits prior to every loan repayment.

From the Satoshi's number you can benefit like in every scam - only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.