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Topic: The Bitcoin Paradox - a Simple Online Scam Honored as Deity - page 3. (Read 1101 times)

legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy. 

If no resources exist, it wouldn't require energy to store them.

You freely acknowledge something is being stored, ergo you accept it exists.

If something can be measured, it exists.  If something has value, it exists.  The issue is that you can't comprehend the measurements or the value.  The problem lies with you.
hero member
Activity: 2562
Merit: 577
Stop your obsession with the people that are trying to help you. Focus on the system that tricks you, in order for the anonymous scammers to get their hands on your asset.

Why don't you let them be, these people clearly don't want to be help and as smart as you claim to be, i expect you to be able to recognize that and watch them wallow in lost when the time comes.
if i were you i wont bother lift a finger to help. just grab a bowl of popcorn and watch the movie unfold.  Wink
member
Activity: 756
Merit: 16
We All Can Make It
The OP failed to factor in the utility of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a solution to a problem caused by centralised financial system that the government created hence it's growing adoption and also it's ever increasing fiat tag.

After your hard labour and then you are rewarded, you now have a central authority telling you how not to spend your money, don't send money to this country, don't pay for this goods, you can't order this service. This is a real life problem that Bitcoin has solved.

Satoshi Nakamoto will forever be a hero for coming up with this technology, being critical of Bitcoin is allowed if the purpose is to improve on it but calling it a scam should be a redline on this forum that should lead to some penalty.

Newbies visit this form everyday and posts like this could be discouraging.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
tl;dr
Bitcoin and crypto are simple online scams in the form of the systems for creating the illusion of assets(money). The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. Quantity and name are representations of assets,  written on invoices, orders, accounts, deposits, banknots,... when assets such as debt, equity, commodity, real estate... are transferred between people. By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

Bitcoin was created to fill a real need.  A cheap trustless global payments network for the internet.  It was needed and the innovation was real.  The blockchain is an excellent idea that I'm sure will eventually be implemented in many areas of our lives.  

However, Bitcoin as it exists today mainly as a, "store of value" isn't something I would have ever gotten involved in.  Sure, you can still use Bitcoin to make global payments.  I use it almost exclusively for all of my global payments (unless I'm forced to do fiat transfers).  The fees are generally still fairly low thanks to Bitcoin being split into two types of payment systems (one day only elitists will use on chain transactions) and for those who want to trust 3rd parties to manage or route their coins they will still be able to use it in the future.  We've gotten pretty far away from what satoshi had planned to change the world though.  I think core maintainers get an A+ for pumping Bitcoin's value, and a D- in keeping with it's principles.  On the plus side, now there will be an ever growing number of blockchains created for specific purposes, which will lead to lots of hacks and losses, but will also keep innovation moving and use cases once again growing.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
Fiat is debt that gets paid with every loan repayment. Banknotes and deposis are just the evidence of that debt. In the past you got gold for fiat. Today you get borrower's goods, services or labour. Debt is an asset.

Bitcoin is just another manifestation of the same debt.
In the past people have been using shells, or silver, or gold for the same job. Why can't we use Bitcoin? Because it's... digital? Or maybe because the governments cannot alter the value at will with inflation?
Even now, banks and governments use gold for the job. Why don't they just keep the printed paper if it's so wonderful?


Bitcoin is a name that creates the illusion of asset. And thus, a scam. Those who are in the system are deceiving people by claiming they own asset or money while only name and numbers attributed to their addresses exist. That's why one can benefit only if new investors enter the system. Hence, classical investment scam.

Sour grapes much?
I completely agree with your view, in fact the governments themselves don't want bitcoin economy as they know that hyper bitcoinization will take away their powers to manipulate the currency value at will. Fiat holds no value in ittself. it is the value ascribed to it against debts. like gold which gives it it s value
"Bitcoin economy" is an oxymoron.

"The economy is the total of all activities related to the production, sale, distribution, exchange, and consumption of limited resources by a group of people living and operating within it."

In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy.  In the fiat monetary system debt is produced and exchanged. Debt is a limited resource because it is based on limited number of collaterals. Comparing the bitcoin scam with fiat system is like comparing Monopoly game with real economy.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset.
But, it is nowhere stated that the ledger shows things that exist, that's you, who's benightedly and conservatively concluded it. There's nothing behind the number, it's just the number, but due to consensus and Proof-of-Work, that very number comes with benefits.

Equity and debt are not promises but assets.
They're not promises as is with credit, I might have formulated improperly, but a paper saying that I own something doesn't mean that I definitely own that something. Anyway, we've long gone off-topic, and I'm bored with your idiotic reasoning. Bye.
You're lying, again. It is stated in the Bitcoin Whitepaper that the system produces coins or cash or money. Money is an asset. An asset is a resource that benefits people. However, no holder in the bitcoin system can benefit within the system.  Literally all of them need the resources from new investors to benefit. Further, how can they benefit from the Proof-of-Work that you're referring to? Again, they cannot. The whole system is a fraud that attributes the units of the imagined number (21 million) to people's addresses, and then lie to these people that they own an asset in the quantity of attributed units.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset.
But, it is nowhere stated that the ledger shows things that exist, that's you, who's benightedly and conservatively concluded it. There's nothing behind the number, it's just the number, but due to consensus and Proof-of-Work, that very number comes with benefits.

Equity and debt are not promises but assets.
They're not promises as is with credit, I might have formulated improperly, but a paper saying that I own something doesn't mean that I definitely own that something. Anyway, we've long gone off-topic, and I'm bored with your idiotic reasoning. Bye.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
But, in the first two instances we have the the records of assets.
Exactly. The first two are promises, so-called IOUs. If I send you $5 from my bank account, I will have only moved a promise. Only if we met in real life and I handed you over $5 in cash, we'd have actually accomplished a transaction of $5 without IOUs, intermediaries, promises, trust in general. Only then we would have moved dollars - the asset. In any other way, we'd have moved a liability.

We use electronic cash for the same reason we use cash to settle transactions. Censorship resistance, privacy, lower costs, financial sovereignty.
Like I said, you can keep preaching your sophistry, but the facts won't change. No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset. Equity and debt are not promises but assets. A promise is when you say to your girlfriend that you will be faithful. You don't promise a bank that you'll repay the debt. You pledge a collateral, and sign legally enforceable contract.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
But, in the first two instances we have the the records of assets.
Exactly. The first two are promises, so-called IOUs. If I send you $5 from my bank account, I will have only moved a promise. Only if we met in real life and I handed you over $5 in cash, we'd have actually accomplished a transaction of $5 without IOUs, intermediaries, promises, trust in general. Only then we would have moved dollars - the asset. In any other way, we'd have moved a liability.

We use electronic cash for the same reason we use cash to settle transactions. Censorship resistance, privacy, lower costs, financial sovereignty.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
Point of your statement is therefore what?
That debt is created using no resources; banknotes have no intrinsic value, they're exactly like bitcoin. They're created out of thin air, they can't be used for anything beyond transactions. It's just that their usage is being forced.

You say that debt is evidenced with deposits of those banknotes, I tell you that you can also create debt with bitcoin, if that's your only problem. We have a whole Lending sub-board. There are people who borrow coins with collateral, check it out.
Every record of an asset is intrinsically worthless and created out of thin air. "100 TSLA" is intrinsically worthless. "100 USD" is intrinsically worthless. "100 BTC" is intrinsically worthless. But, in the first two instances we have the records of assets. And it is these assets what the holders of the records own. In the last instance we have the record of nothing that exists with the purpose to trick people into believing that an actual asset exists behind the record. Which is a fraud. Holders of the record own nothing which is why they need the assets of new investors to save themselves from the fraud - like in all investment frauds. You can keep with your sophistry, but nothing will change in that regard.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
Point of your statement is therefore what?
That debt is created using no resources; banknotes have no intrinsic value, they're exactly like bitcoin. They're created out of thin air, they can't be used for anything beyond transactions. It's just that their usage is being forced.

You say that debt is evidenced with deposits of those banknotes, I tell you that you can also create debt with bitcoin, if that's your only problem. We have a whole Lending sub-board. There are people who borrow coins with collateral, check it out.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
Bitcoin was created by Satoshi as a really unique usefull electronic cash system, so if stable as defined like any commodity and can be used , cause such stable and clean, it is also a true commodity like cloud space or time stamping blockchain services....

But, btc got changed. Yepp, that is the issue
No, no and no. Bitcoin was created as a scam where an anonymous person imagined a number - 21 million, then created a system that attributes the units of that number to virtual address of people, and falsely claimed that these units represent some digital coins or asset or money called Bitcoin. But nothing of the sort exists in that person's system. Which is why the address holders can benefit only from funds contributed by new investors - just like in all investment scams.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2548
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
Bitcoin was created by Satoshi as a really unique usefull electronic cash system, so if stable as defined like any commodity and can be used , cause such stable and clean, it is also a true commodity like cloud space or time stamping blockchain services....

But, btc got changed. Yepp, that is the issue
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1

But, fiat money is no resource by default. It begins to have value once it's loaned. Once it's borrowed. Once it's used. Once it's demanded. Once it's supplied. Fiat, alone, does not create debt, which is the resource.
When debt is produced, it is evidenced with deposits or banknotes, that is, records. When a car is produced by a company, it is evidenced with a record in company's accounting books. So, your statement is like saying: record on car alone, doesn't create car, which is a resource. Yes, records on resources are not resources themselves. They are just info on the existence of resources. That's why if you create a record without a resource this is called counterfeit or fraud. Point of your statement is therefore what? What are you trying to say? Have you finally realized why bitcoin is a fraud?
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 
There are tons of people who will do the upmost weird things that you can imagine just to get some attention. This isn't even about just making money via youtube or any other platform anymore, it's about getting attention.

I can honestly feel shocked about people who have failed to be a social media influencer at this day and age, there are enough people to get attention from and there isn't any lack of attention because they keep giving it to thousands of people at a time, each person. I can literally build a youtube channel (tiresome work, wouldn't) or a twitter account (easier, did it multiple times) in 6 months that gets offers from projects to promote them. This isn't the way to do it.
Ad hominem. Theorizing on forum users is trolling.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper.
He's making lots of mistakes and fallacies. Emphasis mine.

Where're 5 things that the person bought after number 5 was attached to their address? What is that mega expensive product that the person paid $40.000 a piece? All you do is repeating "Bitcoin is this", Bitcoin is that" like a broken record, without proving anything.
People in bitcoin community blindly believe Satoshi like he is some kind of God. He wrote in his paper that his system creates coins and the community accepted that without a question. But all that his system does is attaching numbers to addresses.
You're again talking nonsense. People don't agree that the ladger is satisfactory, whatever that means, but to have numbers stored to their address. And they do that because they falsely believe these numbers quantify a digital asset called bitcoin. They believe so, because thay accepted Satoshi's paper at face value. Or because they fall for false narrative and misleading information spread throughout social media.

And further BS from his alt:
Bitcoin has zero cost in creation. It's created by a mere program function.
Given that bitcoin is not a security one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen. The bitcoin system exists only to provide the holders with this "watching" and to transfer it between people. First the miners invest electricity to make the system running, and the system rewards them by giving them the ability to watch a number on the screen. Then, they sell this "watching" to someone else. Currently, people ask $37,000 for it. I am simply asking why would I pay so much money for something like that?



Fiat money is a resource that benefits people at debt repayments, as explained in the OP.
But, fiat money is no resource by default. It begins to have value once it's loaned. Once it's borrowed. Once it's used. Once it's demanded. Once it's supplied. Fiat, alone, does not create debt, which is the resource.
hero member
Activity: 2618
Merit: 586
You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 
There are tons of people who will do the upmost weird things that you can imagine just to get some attention. This isn't even about just making money via youtube or any other platform anymore, it's about getting attention.

I can honestly feel shocked about people who have failed to be a social media influencer at this day and age, there are enough people to get attention from and there isn't any lack of attention because they keep giving it to thousands of people at a time, each person. I can literally build a youtube channel (tiresome work, wouldn't) or a twitter account (easier, did it multiple times) in 6 months that gets offers from projects to promote them. This isn't the way to do it.
jr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 1
Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

I would say the above is how you are rationalizing your consipracy theory.

Quote
Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset [This is false. -NotATether]. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper. Foreign banknotes cannot be modeled  with your above description - because the foreign currencies have backing in their respective countries' banks. Similarly, cryptocurrencies have the backing of all exchanges which sell them to users.

The reason you don't see BTC used as a debt is because banks don't issue loans in BTC, only in USD and other currencies.

And the final interjection you put at the end of your argument brings it crashing down like a house of cards: Your theory that money is an asset.

Money is not an asset - it is a vector used to buy actual assets like gold, stocks etc. and liabilities (an asset cannot be used as a currency).


You're playing semantics.
First. Foreign banknotes are evidence of investment in foreign debt. Just like you can invest in foreign companies you can invest in foreign debt. Nothing changes with regards to debt payment.

Second. A currency is s resource. A resource is something that benefits people. Fiat money is a resource that benefits people at debt repayments, as explained in the OP. A company is a resource because people benefit from capital or the production of goods and services. Gold is a resource because people benefit from it by usage in dentistry, medicine, electronics, computers, medals, statues, jewellery...

When you enter the Satoshi's system you haven't got a resource that benefits people. Only a number was attached to your address to create the illusion of quantity. That's all. Then you wait for the new investors to bring in the resources from which you can benefit. That's a textbook definition of an investment scam. People are scammed by various narratives that claim that in the system there's a currency or asset. Meaning, that in the system there's a resource from which people can benefit. Bu no one can benefit from within the system. The whole system is a giant fraud that uses name and numbers to create the illusion of currency or asset or money.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

I would say the above is how you are rationalizing your consipracy theory.

Quote
Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset [This is false. -NotATether]. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper. Foreign banknotes cannot be modeled  with your above description - because the foreign currencies have backing in their respective countries' banks. Similarly, cryptocurrencies have the backing of all exchanges which sell them to users.

The reason you don't see BTC used as a debt is because banks don't issue loans in BTC, only in USD and other currencies.

And the final interjection you put at the end of your argument brings it crashing down like a house of cards: Your theory that money is an asset.

Money is not an asset - it is a vector used to buy actual assets like gold, stocks etc. and liabilities (an asset cannot be used as a currency).
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
Yes, BitCON is a huge scam. Maybe not exactly scam, as a pump and dump coordinated pyramid scheme for insiders trading and bot machines along with shiller who need the next idiot to put his cash into crypto synthetically driving the price up so they unload on idiots who believe that story.

BitCON jesus satoshi saw it as - BitCON as a P2P digital cash. But its faulty by definition. By definition cash is anonymous, and there is no transaction fees, cash transactions are never recorded on a public ledger for ever. BitCON on the other hand is all contrary to that. Huge transaction fees, publicly publish transaction records, not anonymous. Dont give me lightning network please. Plus its slow, expensive, spending huuge amounts of electricity. In short terms, completly USELESS. Only use it has is using electricity for nothing, and pyramid pump and dump schemes by insiders to steal peoples money.

Then when the scammers saw that you can no longer sell the bullshit story, then they sell you BitCON is store of value. By definition it fails, since:
Code:
A store of value is essentially an asset, commodity, or currency that can be saved, retrieved, and exchanged in the future without deteriorating in value. In other words, to enter this category, the item acquired should, over time, either be worth the same or more.
If someone buyed bitcon 3 months ago, his wealth deteriorated, so that is a scam also by definition.

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