The end of copyright and patent is where we should be headed - page 4.

koelen3

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 01:22:51 AM

Quote from: koelen3 on March 06, 2015, 01:20:51 AM

The idea of patent is to get people what they deserve and if someone works their ass hard and gives us something good , they deserve the royalty

The original idea of patent was perhaps like that - these days patents are used by large corporations to prevent anyone else from even entering their markets.

Excuse me but what's wrong with that?
That's how market's work and patent and royalty .
If someone Discovers /develops something , they have full copyright and patent on it and if someone decides to use it ! They pay for it .
Let's consider it as with your name , You have complete Copyright over your name and avatar. What if someone makes a same username (with a lil difference and same is not allowed) and gets same avatar( i know not allowed for now) BUT is a totally different guy and by chance chose the same avatar but have same name (I don't know if it is your real photo , we are just supposing it here) . People will instantly tag him as Fake even though he did nothing wrong , probably the poor guy doesn't even know what happened to him.
Same is in the case of Signature Campaigns , we lend our copyrighted names and Identity to them to earn some money.
The idea of Patent/Copyright is totally solid in my opinion and should stay.
~Regards Koelen3

CIYAM

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Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 01:37:08 AM

bitcoin is the exception to the rule.

Not really sure what you are getting at as Bitcoin's UI is pretty "plain Jane" compared to many advanced open source applications (maybe you just need to familiarise yourself more with what is available).

Quickseller

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 01:21:56 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 01:01:37 AM

When looking at these operating systems and applications through the eyes of someone who does not have a lot of technical skills, would you say that these applications have the same level of both features and UI as "traditional" (patented) applications have? Will they have the same level of security as necessary for people who have little/no experience in managing their security?

Applications are not patented (although some algorithms are) and there are plenty of nice shiny UI open source applications.

As for security - I guess that you don't think Bitcoin is secure (better hope whatever online wallet you use doesn't disappear and take all your funds with it).

bitcoin is the exception to the rule. Bitcoin also takes a lot of very advanced technology to secure it that is run by many very technological advanced people.

It is also very difficult for a non-technogical advanced person to secure their own bitcoin. The concept of using proper 'brain wallet' security measures is foreign to most people, the concept of how password protected backups work is foreign to most people. Many people do not have the technical expertise to be able to secure their bitcoin.

Don't get me wrong, I very much love bitcoin, and I very much believe in bitcoin's long term success, and I have put a lot of my time into earning bitcoin. However people do need to have their hand held.

(oYo)

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Quote from: koelen3 on March 06, 2015, 01:20:51 AM

Quote from: (oYo) on March 06, 2015, 01:03:24 AM

Quote from: Beliathon on March 05, 2015, 11:43:15 PM

Quote from: (oYo) on March 05, 2015, 11:38:46 PM

I personally don't see this ever happening, since not only would people have to put aside their own petty and selfish desires, but they'd also have to destroy the formidable political and corporate power structures which supports such behavior.

Correct. This will happen.

Even though I don't believe it's quite enough, the end of monetary inflation would surely be a great start and certainly a move in the right direction. Great video. Thx!

Though this all seems good but think for a moment that you work your ass off , day and night , crowd fund a project and then some rich guy steals your idea , get's it done and Ta-da! who get's the credit ?
The Rich guy because media will go to him.
The idea of patent is to get people what they deserve and if someone works their ass hard and gives us something good , they deserve the royalty

I did address this in my original comment. You're missing some context here, since Beliathon didn't quote my comment in its entirety.

Here it is again.

Quote from: (oYo) on March 05, 2015, 11:38:46 PM

If we were to eliminate patent and copyright laws without moving on to something like a 'gift economy', rich and powerful entities would simply steal your ideas and flood the market with their own versions. I personally don't see this ever happening, since not only would people have to put aside their own petty and selfish desires, but they'd also have to destroy the formidable political and corporate power structures which supports such behavior. Frankly, I don't believe people will ever become intelligent, vigilant and responsible enough or care for one another enough, to break free from this perpetual master/slave relationship with one another.

Isn't this topic better suited in the Politics & Society section?

CIYAM

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Quote from: koelen3 on March 06, 2015, 01:20:51 AM

The idea of patent is to get people what they deserve and if someone works their ass hard and gives us something good , they deserve the royalty

The original idea of patent was perhaps like that - these days patents are used by large corporations to prevent anyone else from even entering their markets.

CIYAM

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Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 01:01:37 AM

When looking at these operating systems and applications through the eyes of someone who does not have a lot of technical skills, would you say that these applications have the same level of both features and UI as "traditional" (patented) applications have? Will they have the same level of security as necessary for people who have little/no experience in managing their security?

Applications are not patented (although some algorithms are) and there are plenty of nice shiny UI open source applications.

As for security - I guess that you don't think Bitcoin is secure (better hope whatever online wallet you use doesn't disappear and take all your funds with it).

koelen3

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Sooner or later, a man who wears two faces forgets

Quote from: (oYo) on March 06, 2015, 01:03:24 AM

Quote from: Beliathon on March 05, 2015, 11:43:15 PM

Quote from: (oYo) on March 05, 2015, 11:38:46 PM

I personally don't see this ever happening, since not only would people have to put aside their own petty and selfish desires, but they'd also have to destroy the formidable political and corporate power structures which supports such behavior.

Correct. This will happen.

Even though I don't believe it's quite enough, the end of monetary inflation would surely be a great start and certainly a move in the right direction. Great video. Thx!

Though this all seems good but think for a moment that you work your ass off , day and night , crowd fund a project and then some rich guy steals your idea , get's it done and Ta-da! who get's the credit ?
The Rich guy because media will go to him.
The idea of patent is to get people what they deserve and if someone works their ass hard and gives us something good , they deserve the royalty

(oYo)

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Quote from: Beliathon on March 05, 2015, 11:43:15 PM

Quote from: (oYo) on March 05, 2015, 11:38:46 PM

I personally don't see this ever happening, since not only would people have to put aside their own petty and selfish desires, but they'd also have to destroy the formidable political and corporate power structures which supports such behavior.

Correct. This will happen.

Even though I don't believe it's quite enough, the end of monetary inflation would surely be a great start and certainly a move in the right direction. Great video. Thx!

Quickseller

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 12:58:06 AM

I think you might need to look a bit harder.

Not only are there entire open source operating systems but every single kind of application you can think of.

When looking at these operating systems and applications through the eyes of someone who does not have a lot of technical skills, would you say that these applications have the same level of both features and UI as "traditional" (patented) applications have? Will they have the same level of security as necessary for people who have little/no experience in managing their security?

CIYAM

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I think you might need to look a bit harder.

Not only are there entire open source operating systems but every single kind of application you can think of.

2112

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 12:09:25 AM

Reverse engineering was how we got PC clones - but funnily enough IBM didn't go out of business did they?

IBM PC was not reverse engineered. IBM published very detailed technical reference manual that contained entire schematic of the circuitry as well as full assembly listing of the BIOS. The details of the IBM PC platforms (classic, Jr, XT, AT & PS/2) were never secret.

Please don't mix up reverse engineering with various clean-room design methodologies.

I will however believe that there were people who were paid to pretend to do reverse-engineering and probably some of them were even paid to swear to that under the penalty of perjury or create an "alternative construction" that served as a proof of reverse engineering.

Quickseller

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 12:33:37 AM

Let's start by taking a look at "open source" software.

According to the general theory that companies need to protect their "intellectual property" (a term I despise) the open source movement should have died almost as soon as it started.

Yet it not only has flourished but made things like Bitcoin possible (there could be no such thing as Bitcoin without open source).

I personally like open source software, and I personally tend to use open source software when I can. However there is often no open source version of what I want/need to use.

The main problem with open source software is that entities do not have the incentive to work on it nor to improve it on any kind of large scale.There are some projects that people contribute good money too because they are working towards a good cause (e.g. tor), however in the grand scheme of things there are very few open source software/projects out there with 'mainstream potential', the likely reason being the lack of commercial incentives for entities to invest in open source projects.

CIYAM

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Let's start by taking a look at "open source" software.

According to the general theory that companies need to protect their "intellectual property" (a term I despise) the open source movement should have died almost as soon as it started (being simply some sort of "hippy dream").

Yet it not only has flourished but made things like Bitcoin possible (there could be no such thing as Bitcoin without open source).

Quickseller

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Quote from: Beliathon on March 06, 2015, 12:23:06 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 12:20:41 AM

Why should you invest significant amounts of money to make some kind of invention when you could just wait for someone else to do the 'heavy lifting' for you.

This concern only really matters when you're not pals with the people printing the money (or for those borrowing millions interest-free). When you have that kind of game-rigging happening in the heart of your system, the rules no longer apply.

Most companies do not have the ability to access unlimited amounts of money. Most companies do not have the ability to borrow at near interest free rates.

The interest rates that companies in the US borrow at are set by the markets

Beliathon

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Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 12:20:41 AM

Why should you invest significant amounts of money to make some kind of invention when you could just wait for someone else to do the 'heavy lifting' for you.

This concern only really matters when you're not pals with the people printing the money (or for those borrowing millions interest-free). When you have that kind of game-rigging happening in the heart of your system, the rules no longer apply.

Besides, if your big company fails because some little guy copied you and undercut your prices, you'll just get bailed out anyway! Or even if you don't get bailed out, we all know the executives will have their golden parachutes ready.

Quickseller

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 12:09:25 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 12:02:53 AM

Patents are a very important piece of business as they give business the protection they need for their investment in research and development of new technology and products.

That is what is often "claimed" but I've actually seen very little real evidence to back up said claims (but I've seen plenty of evidence to show that patents are being used to stifle innovation by companies that own them yet don't actual "use" them for anything except to prevent others from using a technology that they don't want to succeed).

I would agree that we need some kind of reform when it comes to patient laws. There is an excess amount of litigation regarding patients, and many patients are created just to litigate in the future (and patients are often purchased for the sole purpose of litigation).

With that being said however I think that companies do need protection for their investments they make when inventing something. Why should you invest significant amounts of money to make some kind of invention when you could just wait for someone else to do the 'heavy lifting' for you.

Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 12:09:25 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 12:02:53 AM

What would stop one of your customers from copying your design? The process would not be as easy as in Soros Shorts's hypothetical example, however someone could reverse engineer a design and dump it on the market.

Reverse engineering was how we got PC clones - but funnily enough IBM didn't go out of business did they?

I honestly cannot say I am familiar with PC clones. However I can say that one of the biggest costs that mining manufacturers have is R&D. If someone was able to skip the R&D phase of developing their miners then they would be able to sell their miners for significantly less then companies that did need to bear this expense.

Beliathon

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 06, 2015, 12:09:25 AM

Reverse engineering was how we got PC clones - but funnily enough IBM didn't go out of business did they?

Not just yet, at least. 2014-15 hasn't exactly been kind to them, though. I guess I wouldn't complain if my 103 year old company had a 150+ billion dollar marketcap, though.

CIYAM

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Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 12:02:53 AM

Patents are a very important piece of business as they give business the protection they need for their investment in research and development of new technology and products.

That is what is often "claimed" but I've actually seen very little real evidence to back up said claims (but I've seen plenty of evidence to show that patents are being used to stifle innovation by companies that own them yet don't actual "use" them for anything except to prevent others from using a technology that they don't want to succeed).

Quote from: Quickseller on March 06, 2015, 12:02:53 AM

What would stop one of your customers from copying your design? The process would not be as easy as in Soros Shorts's hypothetical example, however someone could reverse engineer a design and dump it on the market.

Reverse engineering was how we got PC clones - but funnily enough IBM didn't go out of business did they?

Quickseller

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 05, 2015, 11:54:42 PM

Quote from: Soros Shorts on March 05, 2015, 10:26:10 PM

How would you apply this idea to something closer to home ... something like a Bitcoin mining ASIC? Say you are the owner of a fabless ASIC design firm and you've just spent the last 2 years designing the most efficient 16nm SHA256 mining chip. You send the digital design to a fab for manufacture. Should the fab be able to sell copies of your design to a third party? Or worse, manufacture extra chips using your masks and dump them on the market?

It's very simple - you make a legal agreement with the fab manufacture called a "non-disclosure period" (I am not against those). If they break the agreement then you take them to court (and if you don't trust Chinese courts then just stop using Chinese manufacturing).

Coming to China did lead me to have to challenge my thinking as making money from copies is the model that the company I used to work for employed (and that just doesn't work in China).

But I haven't starved or gone crawling back to "the man" just because people here won't pay for software copies.

What would stop one of your customers from copying your design? The process would not be as easy as in Soros Shorts's hypothetical example, however someone could reverse engineer a design and dump it on the market.

Patents are a very important piece of business as they give business the protection they need for their investment in research and development of new technology and products.

Beliathon

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Quote from: CIYAM on March 05, 2015, 11:54:42 PM

But I haven't starved or gone crawling back to "the man" just because people here won't pay for software copies.

A white westerner in China? Spoiler: you ARE the man.

Topic: The end of copyright and patent is where we should be headed - page 4. (Read 3958 times)