The fight over electric car batteries

chrisculanag

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Quote from: fadhilz123 on December 31, 2022, 05:12:34 AM

Quote from: chrisculanag on December 29, 2022, 01:53:13 PM

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

There are many countries now that have produced lithium, and I think the price issue will also vary greatly because the taxes in each country are not always the same. So it would be very natural if it could get special control from several parties so that the price can be very affordable for consumers who need it. Here are some lithium-producing countries that already have the best ratings according to investingnews.com sources

Australia, Mine production: 55,000 MT
Chile, Mine production: 26,000 MT
China, Mine production: 14,000 MT
Argentina, Mine production: 6,200 MT
Brazil, Mine production: 1,500 MT
Zimbabwe, Mine production: 1,200 MT
Portugal, Mine production: 900 MT
United States, Mine production: withheld

It is gratifying to think that many countries are already mining it and these countries are very good reputation , but as you say the taxes they impose are different which affect of its price. Most consumers of this product are also looking for a low price.

I think it's really right that every countries need talk about implementing the right price of lithium.

franky1

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new law for UK 2023

every new house build has to include a car charging port on the external wall of the house

so instead of a hole in the wall to have a gas pipe into the house there is no a hole for a electric cable going out of the house

but yes supermarket car parks is a way forward and see an end to "fuel stations"

trucking industry will have truckstops operating "pitstops" where they have batteries fortlifted off the truck cabin and swapped with a charged battery (like a F! racecar pitstop where they swap tires in fast pace time)

these pitstops will be at most distribution centres and "major truckstops"
thus trucks are not stuck having to wait for charging they just have batteries swapped out while they take a 30minute break or have their haul off/onloaded at a distribution centre

tygeade

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Quote from: franky1 on January 01, 2023, 03:17:18 PM

Quote from: pixie85 on December 29, 2022, 07:49:06 PM

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

here in the UK they are not attempting a "fuel station" concept. they are instead just having charging points at supermarkets. that way while in a supermarket doing weekly shop (usually you waste 40 minutes deciding which meat, veg and desert you want for the week) you are also charging your car in that 40 minutes, which with a "super fast charger" completes a 80%+ in 20-30 minutes. thus gives you enough charge for 240+ miles per supermarket visit, whilst not feeling like you are just aimlessly wait. due to you doing other tasks for the week during that time

This is actually quite genius way of doing it. We have one better in "some" places but unfortunately only on the high end places where if you live in a luxury residence or something, you have them in garage, meaning you could just go down, put your car in there, go up to your own home, wait for it to be over and then it notifies you when it's done and moves your car to side so someone else can come, and you take your car back to your park spot.

It's something awesome but unfortunately it's like those high end penthouse type of people who have it. Aside from that we have it in gas stations only, not in supermarkets but that sounds like the smartest way, definitely would use it 100% for sure.

franky1

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i dont see an issue in the "battery" sector. because desalinating water can become the "mine" to harvest lithium and sodium(the two types of electrolytes). and desalinating water is the next big sector to grow

however if you look at the numbers
a normal house of say 18 solar panels

rated at 400w/panel
with an average of just 5 good light hours a day(UK)
is going to use up 2 days of power generation just to charge a car for the week

if you calculate all cars at grocery stores charging points. shifting out 80% of 70kwh in 30mins (56kwh)
the amount of solar/hydro/nuclear/needed when all cars are electric will be more then the residential electric usage of today

when places like california are crying about risks of brownouts at current residential usage/capacity.. alot needs to be done in the realms of power production, before worrying about the car power storage

STT

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There will need to be a structural change but electric cars arent in isolation by advancing, theres technology like solar panels also improving greatly in efficiency. I agree on the way it alters the energy balance, alot of places have no oil but almost everywhere gets some sunlight or wind or hydro power possible so I dont think its too much but it will require investments to be deployed.
Most places should benefit, very obviously it will take away some power from the middle east and the reserves they have extracted there very cheaply for so long. Most people who own a household can operate solar panels, in the end that will mean a benefit for those people to self provide this energy usage. Also it encourages some management of that energy rather then import and buy endless reserves, its probably a good thing overall.

coupable

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Quote from: tjtonmoy on January 01, 2023, 03:58:03 PM

Quote from: kro55 on January 01, 2023, 11:34:24 AM

Gasoline is cheaper than electricity?, if this were my country, it would be a Guinness record. In my hometown, gasoline is 7 times more expensive than electricity and there is very little shortage of electricity, even in the dry season. And in the past few years, in my locality, the use of solar panels has become popular, so in the hot season, there may be an excess of electricity. It can be said that our living area is different. Gasoline here is an expensive commodity, so people tend to switch to electric cars.

Done some research on this and here's what I have found.
It will cost you around $10.93 to fill the tank on a car to travel 39 miles
And to travel the same distance on EV will require around $5.83 worth of electricity.
[Data not 100% accurate because energy or gas consumption may vary for different models]
It is cheap compared to gas price, I have come to learn that now. But the question raises here. We are not getting enough power in our country. Load shedding is a major problem here. Few days back when the energy consumption was so high, the government would only supply limited amount of power and turn off the supply for 4–6 hours. If you own an EV here, and you have to face something like this, that won't be very pleasing, would it?
And also about importing cars from other country. Normally we have to pay 68% VAT on normal cars. Don't know how much the government will charge us to import EVs.

There will be no problem for most countries in providing electricity for electric cars unless the use of ordinary cars is completely abandoned. And here lies the real problem with the energy companies that have long-term contracts in those countries.
In countries that do not manufacture cars, there will be no demand for owning electric cars if their price will rise due to customs duties. Without forgetting the infrastructure this will require. I assure you, the energy companies will not allow this easily.

KennyR

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Quote from: franky1 on January 01, 2023, 03:17:18 PM

Quote from: pixie85 on December 29, 2022, 07:49:06 PM

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

here in the UK they are not attempting a "fuel station" concept. they are instead just having charging points at supermarkets. that way while in a supermarket doing weekly shop (usually you waste 40 minutes deciding which meat, veg and desert you want for the week) you are also charging your car in that 40 minutes, which with a "super fast charger" completes a 80%+ in 20-30 minutes. thus gives you enough charge for 240+ miles per supermarket visit, whilst not feeling like you are just aimlessly wait. due to you doing other tasks for the week during that time

This is really good plan, people never find difficulty waiting for the car to get charged. For the city commute these cars are really good. For long rides often we need to visit super Market and charging stations. In my country a person have attached a mini generator that runs on gasoline to power the car when he wasn't able to reach the power station within the power available. A charge station is completely powered by solar and this is really interesting. In someway electric cars are good, though the production cause heavy pollution.

franky1

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Quote from: tjtonmoy on January 01, 2023, 03:58:03 PM

Done some research on this and here's what I have found.
It will cost you around $10.93 to fill the tank on a car to travel 39 miles
And to travel the same distance on EV will require around $5.83 worth of electricity.
[Data not 100% accurate because energy or gas consumption may vary for different models]

most EV cars represent roughly 75kwh/300mile(25kwh/100m)

so your math of 39 miles is 13% of the 300mile thus 9.75khw for 39mile

so if you are suggesting a cost of $5.83 for 9.75 KWH
then you are suggesting ~$0.60/kwh

where do you live ... hawaii? alaska? japan?

tjtonmoy

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Quote from: kro55 on January 01, 2023, 11:34:24 AM

Gasoline is cheaper than electricity?, if this were my country, it would be a Guinness record. In my hometown, gasoline is 7 times more expensive than electricity and there is very little shortage of electricity, even in the dry season. And in the past few years, in my locality, the use of solar panels has become popular, so in the hot season, there may be an excess of electricity. It can be said that our living area is different. Gasoline here is an expensive commodity, so people tend to switch to electric cars.

Done some research on this and here's what I have found.
It will cost you around $10.93 to fill the tank on a car to travel 39 miles
And to travel the same distance on EV will require around $5.83 worth of electricity.
[Data not 100% accurate because energy or gas consumption may vary for different models]
It is cheap compared to gas price, I have come to learn that now. But the question raises here. We are not getting enough power in our country. Load shedding is a major problem here. Few days back when the energy consumption was so high, the government would only supply limited amount of power and turn off the supply for 4–6 hours. If you own an EV here, and you have to face something like this, that won't be very pleasing, would it?
And also about importing cars from other country. Normally we have to pay 68% VAT on normal cars. Don't know how much the government will charge us to import EVs.

franky1

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Quote from: pixie85 on December 29, 2022, 07:49:06 PM

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

here in the UK they are not attempting a "fuel station" concept. they are instead just having charging points at supermarkets. that way while in a supermarket doing weekly shop (usually you waste 40 minutes deciding which meat, veg and desert you want for the week) you are also charging your car in that 40 minutes, which with a "super fast charger" completes a 80%+ in 20-30 minutes. thus gives you enough charge for 240+ miles per supermarket visit, whilst not feeling like you are just aimlessly wait. due to you doing other tasks for the week during that time

sana54210

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Quote from: Moneyprism on January 01, 2023, 12:46:49 PM

it seems that countries in the world are starting to be very protective of their lithium,, considering that if this is not done then private companies will use it to monopolize lithium resources and use it as they like and in the end the lithium source country gets nothing

That kind of situation may not last for long as new improved version of electric car batteries is in development but for next 10 years we may end up using lithium based batteries only which means corporates will try to milk the maximum in-between time periods. I read the new development on electric vehicle batteries may bring alternatives to lithium based batteries and with up to 100 years of life time.

When safer atom based electricity generation will be combined with advanced batteries, I guess the world economy will enter into a new dimension and will root for stable economy by lowering the production costs everywhere.

Moneyprism

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it seems that countries in the world are starting to be very protective of their lithium,, considering that if this is not done then private companies will use it to monopolize lithium resources and use it as they like and in the end the lithium source country gets nothing

kro55

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*STOP NOWHERE*

Quote from: tjtonmoy on December 31, 2022, 06:49:24 PM

Quote from: kro55 on December 29, 2022, 11:16:06 PM

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

Price and availability is the main concern. Living in a 3rd world country, I have learned that already now. There are always shortage of power and the price you have to pay to get that is insane. You need to have enough power to provide for the whole country's need. We don't get that here.
I also don't have much knowledge on how much energy it costs to one time charge your EV, but considering the condition here, gas might be more cheap than electricity. And also we don't have road permission for electric vehicles. In the future, maybe. But for now we have to stick to the gas car, unfortunately.

Gasoline is cheaper than electricity?, if this were my country, it would be a Guinness record. In my hometown, gasoline is 7 times more expensive than electricity and there is very little shortage of electricity, even in the dry season. And in the past few years, in my locality, the use of solar panels has become popular, so in the hot season, there may be an excess of electricity. It can be said that our living area is different. Gasoline here is an expensive commodity, so people tend to switch to electric cars.

STT

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Quote

Elon is dumping his Tesla shares

Elon bought and promised others the good ownership of a company previously listed at over a trillion, thats alot of money for even the richest man which is why he must liquidate the shares. He still owns alot of Tesla, more then most CEO I guess.
In theory he can rebuy the shares as they just got alot cheaper, thats the ideal but sadly his twitter stake is not likely to release any spare capital any time soon I guess but in theory his sale of TSLA shares was entirely sensible; never own just one thing.

tjtonmoy

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Quote from: kro55 on December 29, 2022, 11:16:06 PM

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

Price and availability is the main concern. Living in a 3rd world country, I have learned that already now. There are always shortage of power and the price you have to pay to get that is insane. You need to have enough power to provide for the whole country's need. We don't get that here.
I also don't have much knowledge on how much energy it costs to one time charge your EV, but considering the condition here, gas might be more cheap than electricity. And also we don't have road permission for electric vehicles. In the future, maybe. But for now we have to stick to the gas car, unfortunately.

SirLancelot

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Quote from: mindrust on December 31, 2022, 07:15:33 AM

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

Huh? I think it was the opposite. People are trying to be more friendly now when it comes to the environment so they avoid anything which can harm to it like using oils in cars, this is why there are now electric cars like tesla who are slowly gaining a momentum. This was only expensive at the moment but I believe that other car manufacturers are going to join this trend and make a budget friendly versions of these cars.

It's reported that Elon sold some of his tesla shares but I think there are different reasons for that and not that this project is a failure and he wants to abandon it later on. Maybe it's just a strategy once again by Elon because you know, this guy is a master manipulator.

darkangel11

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Quote from: mindrust on December 31, 2022, 07:15:33 AM

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

I feel you man. My friend is in love with the camry, but there's so many good looking cars out there right now that the competition is big.
There are some pretty nice electric car as well like KIA EV6GT which would probably be my choice if I had to go electric. Fortunately I don't.
As for ICE there's an interesting new very efficient engine made by Mazda called SkyactiveX.
Manufacturers also experiment with hydrogen cells and you can already buy like Toyota Mirai.
Don't forget about the new NA Corvette engine that isn't eco but makes 500hp and you can add a supercharger on top of it if that's not enough. I've seen some reviews and people love the car.

IMO ICE cars are not dead yet, at least as long as we have a choice in the matter.

mindrust

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They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

YOSHIE

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on December 24, 2022, 04:46:47 PM

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

You are right, electric cars consume a lot of energy, I took the example of the 20th Summit, in 2022, all car facilities used to pick up or take state officials electric powered cars, 1000 more electric cars are in use, but only for a few days.

But there are interesting things that are being questioned by the public about the electric car, after the 20 Summit is over, if the car will be sold to the public.
Example:

Quote

The community also needs certainty about incentives such as taxes and increases in electricity power if they commit to switching from fuel-drinking vehicles to vehicles with rechargeable batteries. Because it cannot be denied, electric vehicles have been synonymous with "toys" for the rich.

As well as ease of spare parts and servicing. I myself have never seen a special electric vehicle repair shop. If this facility exists, motorists or car users can rest easy because they know where to go when their vehicle needs maintenance.

In this quote, it can be concluded that if the government imposes greater electricity bills on the public and there are no electric car parts, automatically with the people's economy which is currently screaming, I'm sure the electric car trade plan isn't channeled efficiently, what's more for people with a lower-class economy, it's clearly a nightmare for them.

fadhilz123

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Quote from: chrisculanag on December 29, 2022, 01:53:13 PM

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

There are many countries now that have produced lithium, and I think the price issue will also vary greatly because the taxes in each country are not always the same. So it would be very natural if it could get special control from several parties so that the price can be very affordable for consumers who need it. Here are some lithium-producing countries that already have the best ratings according to investingnews.com sources

Australia, Mine production: 55,000 MT
Chile, Mine production: 26,000 MT
China, Mine production: 14,000 MT
Argentina, Mine production: 6,200 MT
Brazil, Mine production: 1,500 MT
Zimbabwe, Mine production: 1,200 MT
Portugal, Mine production: 900 MT
United States, Mine production: withheld

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