Topic: The fight over electric car batteries - page 2. (Read 785 times)

The electric vehicle industry is very interesting at present, but if the governments of the major powers are really concerned about global warming, I believe that electric cars will soon be limited and cannot replace petrol cars. The use of gasoline still produces less waste than current battery-powered vehicles, IMO. This reminds me of the government blaming bitcoin for global warming without hearing them complain about this .

It is true that this will create a trouble, but even scarier thing is that if we do not care about it. Look at the plastics in our ocean, basically every fish you eat has a small amount of plastic in it, doesn't matter how microscopic it is there is some in them.

Because ocean is filled with plastic. Do we do something about it? This is hurting the world, and the world is heating up, there is a ton of pollution, are we doing something about it? No. So, it is not scary to think there is a trouble with battery waste, there is a scare about the fact that battery waste will not be cared about at all, and that is seriously scary and I do not know what will happen.

Your battery will never last 12 years with current tech.  8 years is pushing it.   10k replacement   wheres the value again?

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

There is a guy on YouTube called Rich rebuilds who buys salvaged Tesla’s and tries fixing them up. He is a pretty funny guy however he says that Tesla can sell you a refurbished battery for a model 3 for $22K. That doesn’t include installation.

Now how much is a Tesla, especially 2017-2018 around $35K at inflated car prices. So imagine buying one at $35k and then having the battery go bad and costing almost $25K to get it going again.

Most will just go to the salvage yard. Not worth fixing them when battery is dead. Unless you get the car for free.

The wider point people might be missing in terms of utility to EV is that its very easily a multi purpose vehicle.   So if the market for electric in general is illiquid at any point, it could be useful for every house to have a battery which is something contained in the EV that is not true of any other product around a normal household.    
   EV could be used as arbitrage daily between peak pricing to electric free markets and the off peak pricing.  Wind power for example is either used or wasted, to store that energy is a premium activity.   So too the same can be said of hydro power, only a few types of power station can provide instant power on demand for peak or sudden spikes in demand.
   The modern alternative to centralized production of electricity by power stations might be a nation distributed in its capacity to supply power.  Modern housing can feed power from solar panels back into the grid, this is acknowledged whats missing is that EV also can provide power to grid and this is known and available tech however its not yet common.   A rising trend can justify and back the increasing usage of EV imo, if it represents any kind of improvement to efficiency or liquidity.

The discussion looks heated.

I wouldn't choose an electric car.

Some of you said that they're cheaper in refueling which makes you recoup some of the cost over time but I prefer to hold money in my pocket.
I'd rather spend 10 thousand dollars on a car than 20 with the promise that I'll get 10 back in the next few years.

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

You can't leave your car overnight at a charging station. I live in an apartment building with outside parking lot and can't charge my car from my outlet. I'd have to go to a charging spot every day and wait for it to finish before parking my car for the night.

the 8 years 160km is based on a rough estimate of a 500 recharges, each done every 5-6 days
but thats presenting that a car does 50miles a day to use up its 300mile charge to then need to recharge

yes expect a battery could pop after 8 years but realise.. thats the minimum based on data math of excessive use compared to average. in other words its a safe bet

much like products that last 3 years but quoted as having a 2 year warranty of expectant lifespan

dont base real life span based on the safe bet of warranty lengths
batteries can handle 1000 recharges+ but the safebet was ~500 recharges based on a ~50km a day utility

the 8 year WARRANTY is not the same as saying expected lifespan

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

Make sure in that video to record how many modes there are on that car because if it shows 7 I might ask again why did you say there are 4 yesterday 
Common, you did it only to contradict me without knowing yourself how that car really looks, you fell for it, man up, and be done with it.


You started with the id4, get over with the id4, and don't switch cars as you fit just to try and avoid numbers.
Let's do the math for both cars now with the current! prices, current insurance, current tax, and current government bonus and see how this ends in 4 years of usage, are you up to it? Of course not, cause if you were you would have contradicted franky1 numbers!


Bruh, let me tell you this straight, this is bullshit and you know it too well.
You went for a sensationalist article without bothering to look at real prices!
Here is an example of a contract for exactly the town of Oud-Beijerland, with numbers that are half of what the article claims.



Just put a big banner in 100m red fonts with "electric cars suck" next time and be done with it, don't try to give the impression you're willing to debate or discuss numbers since you obviously don't want, you hate them and there is no way for anyone to convince you of anything else. So after the 3 out of 4 and 80cents/kwh I'm not trying it either anymore.

I completely support electric bikes, especially that I had the pleasure to ride one that could easily allow me to go over 30km with partial support from the engine.
Pros of an EV bike:
Fine range, not many people go on bike trips that require more than 40km range in one go.
Great utility, allows you to go uphill for 15 min straight without going into cardiac arrest.
Cons:
Price, but they aren't that expensive.
Weight

With Electric cars IMHO there's much more cons.

The main problem in your calculation of 12 years is that the EV won't make it that long without a new battery. If after 8 years you have to add 5k EUR for a new battery the ROI gets much longer.


This is exactly what I'm trying to point at. The same problem the Renault Zoe users have. The battery lasts up to 8 years or 160k Km.
you're paying 30k EUR for a car that's going to depreciate about 80% in value over the next 10 years and most likely is going to get scrapped after that because nobody will pay 10k+ to get a new battery for a car that's worth maybe 5k without it...


So, that means you haven't driven one, haven't been driven in one and are trying to argue with me when I tell you that Electric mode is unavailable when the car is cold. I'm sure it's the way I say it is, but it seems we have to agree to disagree. I don't have one at hand to record you a video.

"Probably" is a key word here.


That's why I said you can compare ID.3 if you want. It's still much more expensive than the golf.


Well, It doesn't pain me when I have to agree with someone.

Here's a running cost for you:

With current prices of 84 cents per kWh, charging the car to travel 100 kilometres would cost about €12.60, the paper said. And that makes electric cars, in many cases, more expensive to run than petrol ones.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/12/tesla-owner-charges-car-by-linking-it-up-to-a-street-lamp/

With some recent inventions whereby there have been use of electric cars and solar panels cars that will ease the environmental effect of the electric car batteries with the effect of lithium in the environment making life difficult for land and aquatic lives, sourcing for alternative to these use of electric car battery could bringbin more advantages than as expected with the former, andbthe risk to economic growth and supply of batteries for transportation will be reduced since there's abundance with the renewable source for cars to use in transportation than fully dependent on electric car batteries.

Yes, eventually. But to my knowledge these alternatives that scientists have been exploring are very much still in experimental or research state. And as electric vechiles are a rapidly growing industry, investors would be foolish not to put money for research of cheaper and more environmental battery.

And yes, these are coming, they could be sodium, magnesium, aluminium or god knows what based tech, but for now we are still heavily developing lithium based battery innovations. And new kind of tech takes time from research to manufacturing. European Green Deal could speed things up but i don't see it showing on the industustry very soon.

You're saying that because you drove it or you read on the manufacturer's website? 
The company that provides transport for us, airport shuttles, events, stuff like that has had for years two Sx50 hybrids, I know for sure those have 4 drive modes and I know for sure it can start and drive in full electric. Now, and this is where it becomes funny if I would have owned one or I would have gone to the manufacturer's website I would have known there are 7 drives modes out of which 6 are for driving from zero and one adaptive mode, so how did you get the 3 out 4? You realize at this point that you criticizing this model with your current knowledge is quite silly, right?


No, you didn't! Don't you realize how biased you are when you compare the id4 with a far small car when looking at the price and then you say it's better to have more room and more space when comparing it with a larger model that is, surprise not that large at all? Common, seriously I expected you to be far more objective on this!



You stick to the arbitrary things while ignoring the main thing that started this discussion and as much as it pains me to admit here I have to agree with franky1, you obviously and purposely toss aside numbers, ignore the running cost, ignore the average distance travel ignore everything bar the starting price, and this is no way of comparing two cars when you don't have an unlimited budget while stressing the decision is aimed at for saving money!

How far we are going to go with this thing? The whole electric vehicle thing is getting developed at very fast rate but the technology is really old. I mean considering the timeline that we are in and pace of demand that’s rising over the period of time is crazy and all they are relying on is the same old lithium batteries.

If anyway they are putting so much money in the research and development of new technologies then they should invest more into new type of batteries.

Smaller in size and high throughput that’s what they really need in the long run.

If they stop chasing the old tech and improve the batteries the fight may be over soon.

Some guy on the Chevy bolt forum said that it cost him $17K to replace the battery on his bolt back in 2018. Now the cost is slower to $19K according to repair pal.

Looking at MSRP values the 2018 bolt sold for $37.5K. Most likely for much less due to government incentives. So let’s say it sold for $35K.

Now a few years later, will you pay $20K for a new battery. Most likely the market value of a bolt is in the $20K range anyways. So the car becomes worthless when battery goes out.

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)
fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

I get your point, but even if we install the magnetic generator that not require power, its weight in the car still affect the power consumption. The heavier the car, the more power needed. Beside that, this article says that normally an electric car consumes approx 0.20 kWh/km, and theoretically, you can generate that amount of power with 1m diameter turbine with 100% efficiency rate. But you must need 1m3 per second water stream to generate that power. I don't think we can find any stream with that big flow rate continuously while we are driving on the road.

However, while having a simple power generator installed in the car sounds not possible with current technology, some researchers using hydro-power generator for recharge station of electric car. You just need a spot where you could place the power generator and find suitable resources with enough stream to move the turbine. I like your idea but installing the additional generator into your car isn't efficient, even not applicable, at least for now.

The smaller, ID.3 costs only 2k less in the cheapest version, so it doesn't really change much if you want to compare sizes. ID.3 costs 44k and it's almost exactly the same size as Golf. You could have the Arteon for 1k EUR more.

At this time it's the closest thing to a limousine that VW offers. It's also made to be better equipped and more comfortable than the old CC.
I used it to compare with the golf and and an electric car of similar size from the same manufacturer. It's obviously better to pay for more space, better looks, some useful features, than throw the same money into a silent running mode from a battery.



You're saying it because you drove it, or read about it on the manufacturer's site?
There are 4 modes, but the "electric" is disabled until you warm up the car.
You can only start it in 3/4 modes and the electric becomes available after a while, so it doesn't allow you to drive straight out of the parking spot or your garage in electric mode.

The hybrid engine in this model is made only to satisfy the emission standards. It has no real purpose and most people won't even use it. It's a fine example of how fake the industry has become.