Topic: The future of Bitcoin is illegal - page 5. (Read 20070 times)

Please explain to me which online payment method is easier and safer than credit cards. If you say "Bitcoin" then you are as dumb as a sack of rocks.

That's both an unfounded assertion and a logical fallacy combined. Congrats.

I wouldn't go so far as to call you a critic. But if you think the point of bitcoin is to compete with credit cards... then you've really just missed the idea entirely. The entire issue with credit cards, chargebacks and selling online is "fraud prevention". Businesses (especially small business) hate the risk involved with accepting credit cards. The potential for the business owner to be left holding the bag on a bad transaction are huge.

One of the main reason that btc will gain traction vs credit is that you can't do any sort of chargeback. It removed 90% of the risk involved for the vendor. Yes, currently there may be more risk relative to the floating price of btc - but that becomes less of a concern as it gets more users and becoming more commonly accepted.

Before you discount this idea see american express... they came late to the card market and they charge higher fees (yearly) than most credit cards and they penetrated (and now dominate) the card market based solely on being a non-credit card.

Baloney.  That's the sort of reasoning behind Executive Order 6102 (Roosevelt's gold confiscation order).  I would argue that forward-thinking people seeking protection from economic collapse are looking at BTC as well as gold.  If some criminals are seeking tools to carry out their illegal activities then BTC will certainly be one of them.  But good old-fashioned USD greenbacks are the mainstay of illegal activity, not BTC.

The OP suggests that we should encourage it and find new illegal ways to use bitcoin. I agree. I also agree that shady dealings are the first to use new technology. The porn industry revolutionized delivery of video online. This is a great example of a shady business that could be convinced to deal in bitcoins that would benefit bit coin by increasing demand.

You'd be surprised at how EASY it is to get a credit card (in the UK atleast). Now try and get an over draft... well sir now that is difficult if your any of the above. If you have a name and adress you can pretty much get a credit card here, one of the reasons fraud is also such a big deal here.


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Fully agree with this ^

Im your average Joe, found out about Bitcoins through Silk road from a friend, since then Ive told loads of people about Silk Road (I try bitcoins but being fairly computer illiterate by the standards here I dont do so well)

Id have to say for the time being atleast, bitcoins future is illegal.

My guess will be another Crypto currency will spring up, with a fresh start and be a little 'cleaner' if you get what I mean. Right now bitcoin has a pretty bad reputation and I dont really see it changing for a while.

Hell ive been here for about 5 months now lurking (kicking myself for not buying up big time back then) and ive gone from wanting to jump straight in to being alot more cautious. Why? Because the majority of the people using bitcoins seem to be computer nerds with a chip on their shoulder, the amount of scams, hacks and general chatter on this forum is a fairly big warning sign for someone like myself.

I see the potential and I loved the whole ideology aspect of bitcoin, but seems to me that died a while ago and what we have now is a rat race with rats alot more tech savy than myself, no thanks, for now atleast.

Nothing new under the sun. During the entire humankind history always criminals were the first to adopt every new technology. Should we stop developing new technologies just because of this fact?

Anyone who reads rolling stone regularly would have heard of silk road. Gavin Andresen is quoted in that article.

When the gawker article came out in 2011, a lot of news aggregators linked to it with  the same headline.....
"The underground website where you can buy any drug imaginable" or a more recent headline "Amazon.com for illegal drugs"

http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underground-website-where-you-can-buy-any-drug-imaginable
http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/amazon-com-for-illegal-drugs/

And there is word-of-mouth to spread the word.. which is part of the core culture of drug use. Help a brutha out.

How does the average joe participate? Through eBay sales. Joe isn't going to go through the trouble of signing up for an MtGox account. He's willing to pay as much as 50% over value to get bitcoins on ebay. The going rate is 30% over value. Of all the coins I have sold on eBay, the buyers are either holding on to them long term or they head directly to tumblers.

Based on sales and comments by buyers, I also assume that a group of people work through a tech savvy friend and coordinate/combine purchases. Also a core part of the drug culture.

Nothing new really except the guy who knows a guy is buying online and the price is a little higher but the options are greater. The casual user is you, your next door neighbor, your boss, your mom. If nothing else... Silk Road is a safer alternative than buying off the street.

For you, not for the merchant who don't get his money because you took the product and filed a dispute with VISA.  Actually it is not good for you either, because VISA's merchant fees of 3% or more is added to the price tag, and the losses due to fraud.  PayPal is even worse.
If the item is offered for sale in bitcoins, and you own bitcoins, it is the simplest way to pay.  It is like paying with cash on the net.  The police and other agencies are already investigating a number of Bitcoin related crimes.  I agree we need to work out a legal status for Bitcoin, so they can aid more and the tax status is clarified.

There are plenty of legal things you may not want on your credit card bill, btw.  I'm sure you can think of a few for yourself.
Say 1992 then.  Before the WWW.  The number of internet users then is probably comparable to the number of Bitcoin users now.  Basic services like E-mail, Usenet, IRC, games (MUD), gopher and FTP were in place.  Typical transfer rates were rather low.  Or internet banking in 1995.

The average joe don't buy drugs on SR either.  The number of computer geeks in the world outnumber the number of SR users many times, and how many computer illiterates know about SR at all?

Yes, but the banks aren't standing still as far as moving to serve that market.
This just making headlines today:

Prepaid Enters Mainstream
Venture Between Wal-Mart and American Express Illustrates Industry Shift
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444897304578044313831625492.html

There are a whole class of people who can't get credit cards, for example young people, students (in Europe) who have no regular income. Poor people who are too poor to get even a bank account, in developing countries. Illegal immigrants who can't go to a bank where they live. People with bad or no credit rating, ...

The list can go on and on.

This is a sizable chunk of the market which is currently not served by regular credit card companies.

This is very unlikely to happen because of the way credit card processors charge their customers. Small businesses usually pay per transaction, and this can be pretty expensive. Huge chains pay a large flat fee to handle unlimited transactions. This is why small stores and bars often impose a minimum transaction for credit card purchases, but supermarket chains don't.

Even if an online store did offer a discount for paying BTC, I doubt it would be much larger than the transaction costs associated with buying BTC. Plus the store themselves would no doubt incur costs when they sold the BTC, plus the high risk of price fluctuations, etc.

A very large chain of stores here in the UK called Marks and Spencers used to accept EUR as well as GBP for a while. They had to stop because fluctuations were harming their bottom line. And this is with very stable currencies (when compared to BTC).


I think superior is the wrong word. More like "vastly more practical for most purchases." Bitcoin is superior for other things. Like buying drugs online.

Maybe in 5 to 10 years things will be vastly different. We'll see.

I found it hard to believe that my own "free" country had banned owning gold in some ways...

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

It is Bitcoin that seems to be held (by some) with such divine reverence that to even mention that it has some shortcomings is blasphemy here.

Also, to describe me as a critic of Bitcoin is an unfair and inaccurate characterization. I am a Bitcoin supporter. I just have a more realistic view than most.

I'm beginning to think that credit cards are some kind of religious object with many critics of Bitcoin.

Yes. Easily.

You remind me of a comic strip character called Mr. Logic in a magazine called Viz. Some UK people might get a laugh out of that.

Do you have autism? I am not trying to be rude, it's a serious question, because people with autism often get confused like you are.

Let me put it in a more simple way. Let's say I don't currently hold any Bitcoins. I want to buy a product or service. What am I going to do? If I am paying for it online, I would use my Visa card. I punch in the numbers on the website, and I am done. If the product does not arrive then I can put in a dispute to Visa and get my money back. I think it's a good system.

Now, why the fuck would I, instead of going through that simple process, go through the hassle of buying Bitcoin, try to find a merchant who accepts Bitcoin for the product I want, pay him, and then have no recourse either through a payment processor or the police if something goes wrong? Why the utter fuck would anyone do that? It's so utterly bizarre that anyone thinks they would...unless of course it is a product that isn't available through the usual (legal) channels.

Also, as to your second point, I was actually on the internet in 1995. It was a million times more useful than Bitcoin is now. It had so many uses, even back then, that the comparison is actually hilarious.

Hey sturie I fixed that for you buddy.

Hey, y'know what would be even more awesome? If everyone who posted in a thread made some kind of constructive and intelligent contribution to the debate.