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Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 23. (Read 33287 times)

legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
December 01, 2021, 05:15:49 PM
I want to get rid of LND completely from my RPi 4 and I was wondering, what's the best way to do it? I actually just want to downgrade it to 0.12 or anything different rather than the newest 0.13.1 beta version I'm using, but I guess that's not possible without uninstalling it.

You should be careful when downgrading because there might have been significant changes to the database structure between major releases. It looks like there was a small change in the v0.13.0-beta. Is there any particular reason why you want to downgrade your node?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
December 01, 2021, 04:28:17 PM
I want to get rid of LND completely from my RPi 4 and I was wondering, what's the best way to do it? I actually just want to downgrade it to 0.12 or anything different rather than the newest 0.13.1 beta version I'm using, but I guess that's not possible without uninstalling it.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
December 01, 2021, 03:07:01 PM
I also have been using the Lightning Network exclusively for quite some time now. I saved a ton of money on fees by using it to pay Bitrefill, which I frequently use.

LN has it's downsides too though, especially if the payment doesn't instantly go through and I have to wait for a timeout.

LND and c-lightning users can specify the timeout if they want to. Both implementations default to 60 seconds.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
December 01, 2021, 01:57:58 PM
As part of everyone, I confess that it's been a long time since I made an on-chain transaction for purchasing something. I only purchase lightning-ly.
I'll join the line, I too prefer LN. Even though on-chain fees aren't that high, I've had more disappointments* paying merchants on-chain than with LN.

* Things like additional charges for consolidation fees, time-outs because of slow confirmation leading to a refund, demanding a certain minimum fee and still not giving me an instant order, address reuse, etc. etc.
LN has it's downsides too though, especially if the payment doesn't instantly go through and I have to wait for a timeout.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
December 01, 2021, 01:08:08 PM
Lightning simply for payments is currently not happening, everyone prefers to use onchain. But it will happen for something else, another form of utility for users.
As part of everyone, I confess that it's been a long time since I made an on-chain transaction for purchasing something. I only purchase lightning-ly. So, I question your statement. I'd actually say that lots are already using the lightning network for payments, even if it doesn't cost that much to pay on-chain. It's cheaper, faster and more convenient.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
December 01, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Lightning simply for payments is currently not happening
everyone prefers to use onchain. But it will happen for something else, another form of utility for users.
Do you have anything to back these statements? Arguments and / or sources?
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
December 01, 2021, 05:45:33 AM
But Lightning nodes charge fees if transactions are routed through them right? Then if there are high enough entities who are holding UTXOs they don’t like, demand will rise and therefore fees will rise. Unwanted UTXOs can merely be routed through Lightning, and leave those unwanted UTXOs with the routing node.

Observers would call this mixing, I believe it is increasing the anon-set.

Yes, Lightning Network is likely going to increase the anon-set and thus help with Bitcoin's fungibility. I'm not sure if it would be a good thing though if LN became just one big decentralized tumbler. Not that I really see this happening.


If it would incentivize Lightning node operators to increase liquidity in their channels, then I believe it’s going to be a net-positive.

Lightning simply for payments is currently not happening, everyone prefers to use onchain. But it will happen for something else, another form of utility for users.

legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 2178
Playgram - The Telegram Casino
November 30, 2021, 06:09:06 PM
already can't wait to be able to run my own lightning node Wink Smiley

Running a lightning node is a great learning experience, at least it is for me. There's a huge gap between the theoretical knowledge of how the systems should work vs all the nitty gritty details you only notice once you're in the trenches.


I played around with Lightning Terminal when I was running LND and hardly any rebalancing attempts were successful. LOOP handles off-chain payments. Most of their peers charge well over 2000 ppm which is a lot compared to other nodes.

2000 ppm means that you would pay 1000 satoshi + base fee for a 500 000 satoshi payment.

I feel like liquidity sinks are a bit of a weak point in the system. They seem to be impossible to balance so most nodes will have to set fees prohibitively high as to get back their on-chain fees and then some. Unless, of course, you run big channels like this guy:
https://amboss.space/node/03aa49c1e98ff4f216d886c09da9961c516aca22812c108af1b187896ded89807e

It's quite interesting to see the economics at play. Finding the right fees to set and peers to connect feels a bit like a puzzle.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
November 30, 2021, 05:17:44 PM
-snip

I played around with Lightning Terminal when I was running LND and hardly any rebalancing attempts were successful. LOOP handles off-chain payments. Most of their peers charge well over 2000 ppm which is a lot compared to other nodes.

2000 ppm means that you would pay 1000 satoshi + base fee for a 500 000 satoshi payment.
legendary
Activity: 3304
Merit: 8633
Crypto Swap Exchange
November 30, 2021, 02:05:21 PM

Quote
Today we're excited to announce that we're bringing Lightning Terminal to the web, providing a simple web UI for node operators to improve the quality and liquidity of their node. The goal of this new release is to make running a Lightning node simpler, easier, and more accessible, lowering the barrier to instant, high volume, low fee bitcoin transactions for all. With this launch, we're taking a major step toward managing a Lightning node in a secure, private, and non-custodial manner by enabling a web-based experience to easily monitor, manage, and measure nodes.
https://lightning.engineering/posts/2021-11-30-lightning-terminal/
https://terminal.lightning.engineering/#/

already can't wait to be able to run my own lightning node Wink Smiley
hero member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 681
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
November 30, 2021, 05:35:26 AM
Hi...

I would like to kind of introduce a recent system that is yet giving its first steps towards adoption that can help improving the network and general node "quality". This is not my work, it's from a friend that collaborates actively to the C-Lightning implementation of LN. You can reach him via Github (https://github.com/vincenzopalazzo) and Twitter (@PalazzoVincenzo).

This is a system that intends to collect some data from nodes (nodes actually send the data), analyse it and provide a rating for a given node.

The metrics collected are yet small and short, such as uptime, payments statuses. The project is mostly written in Go lang and it's open source and open to submissions and new metrics.

I wanted to help to make this project known, so I am posting this thread.

There are some useful links with some reading to get us introduced with the system:

Medium blog post
https://vincenzopalazzo.medium.com/introduction-to-ln-open-metrics-96a7c859f4e2

Project Github repo
https://github.com/LNOpenMetrics


Project reference on github
https://github.com/LNOpenMetrics/lnmetrics.rfc/

Contributing with a new metric
https://github.com/LNOpenMetrics/lnmetrics.rfc#how-propose-a-new-metric

Hope this helps to spread the word and help the LN to grow bigger, better and healthier.
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 2178
Playgram - The Telegram Casino
November 29, 2021, 07:20:15 AM
But Lightning nodes charge fees if transactions are routed through them right? Then if there are high enough entities who are holding UTXOs they don’t like, demand will rise and therefore fees will rise. Unwanted UTXOs can merely be routed through Lightning, and leave those unwanted UTXOs with the routing node.

Observers would call this mixing, I believe it is increasing the anon-set.

Yes, Lightning Network is likely going to increase the anon-set and thus help with Bitcoin's fungibility. I'm not sure if it would be a good thing though if LN became just one big decentralized tumbler. Not that I really see this happening.

LN's fee market is an interesting one. Rising demand causing individual fees to rise would actually be a bad thing and is hopefully not what we end up with. Ideally, you don't want fees to rise, but rather transaction throughput to increase by having balances flow in both directions of a channel rather than just one. This way individual fees per transaction stay low while node operator profit increases. Whether that's attainable remains to be seen. I do believe it's possible though, as there's an incentive for node operators to learn how to manage their channels most effectively.


That's not how Lightning works. LN doesn't route UTXO's, that's not how it operates. It is a network of peer-to-peer payment channels. You pay off-chain directly to a peer, but you can also pay an intermediary which then pays the destination. If they don't forward the payment, it's not like 'held in custody', instead you get a route fail error and your node tries a different intermediary until it finds one which works. Worst case, the payment fails and you get your money back (in fact, it never left your wallet until destination is reached).

I think what Wind_FURY is referring to is the funds you are left with once the anonymous node closes the channel after pushing their coins through your node. That on-chain settlement transaction will leave you, as an entry node, with the coins that the anonymous node wanted to get rid of.

hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
November 29, 2021, 06:38:51 AM
But Lightning nodes charge fees if transactions are routed through them right? Then if there are high enough entities who are holding UTXOs they don’t like, demand will rise and therefore fees will rise. Unwanted UTXOs can merely be routed through Lightning, and leave those unwanted UTXOs with the routing node.
That's not how Lightning works. LN doesn't route UTXO's, that's not how it operates. It is a network of peer-to-peer payment channels. You pay off-chain directly to a peer, but you can also pay an intermediary which then pays the destination. If they don't forward the payment, it's not like 'held in custody', instead you get a route fail error and your node tries a different intermediary until it finds one which works. Worst case, the payment fails and you get your money back (in fact, it never left your wallet until destination is reached).
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 29, 2021, 06:25:46 AM
Lightning routing node operators can charge higher fees for that, and incetivize others to run their own nodes.

Unless I missed something you can't charge fees for incoming channels so you also can't charge higher fees for that use case. You could charge higher fees in general, but I don't think you get to set different fees depending on which channel the balance comes from.


But Lightning nodes charge fees if transactions are routed through them right? Then if there are high enough entities who are holding UTXOs they don’t like, demand will rise and therefore fees will rise. Unwanted UTXOs can merely be routed through Lightning, and leave those unwanted UTXOs with the routing node.

Observers would call this mixing, I believe it is increasing the anon-set.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
November 28, 2021, 12:53:15 PM
If anyone here is running LND v0.14.0, you should update your node. Otherwise, you won't be able to open channels with nodes running the latest version of c-lightning and eclair.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
November 27, 2021, 08:46:56 AM
Unless I missed something you can't charge fees for incoming channels so you also can't charge higher fees for that use case. You could charge higher fees in general, but I don't think you get to set different fees depending on which channel the balance comes from.

That's correct.

Though I guess it you could write a script that automatically increases your fees for a short while whenever a new channel is opened? Not sure what that would do to your routing reliability though.

You could do that but what's the point? The opener could just wait until you drop the fees down again. You would very likely not route any payments in the meantime.
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 2178
Playgram - The Telegram Casino
November 27, 2021, 08:22:40 AM
Lightning routing node operators can charge higher fees for that, and incetivize others to run their own nodes.

Unless I missed something you can't charge fees for incoming channels so you also can't charge higher fees for that use case. You could charge higher fees in general, but I don't think you get to set different fees depending on which channel the balance comes from.

Though I guess it you could write a script that automatically increases your fees for a short while whenever a new channel is opened? Not sure what that would do to your routing reliability though.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 27, 2021, 02:06:22 AM
Did anyone of you who runs a Lightning routing node experience someone connecting privately to you, route coins through you, then close the channel?

It didn't happen to me so I guess that only extremely large/well-connected nodes experience it.

I believe Lightning deniers foresee something that they don’t want every Bitcoin user to discover.

I am not sure why you mentioned Lightning deniers here. The above sounds to me like a use of someone's Lightning node to mix coins.


No, not as mere mixers, but a censorship-resistant method to increase Bitcoin’s anon-set, and also the ability to reset the anon-set and increase it back again if needed. Cool

Lightning routing node operators can charge higher fees for that, and incetivize others to run their own nodes.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
November 26, 2021, 01:19:35 PM
Did anyone of you who runs a Lightning routing node experience someone connecting privately to you, route coins through you, then close the channel?

It didn't happen to me so I guess that only extremely large/well-connected nodes experience it.

I believe Lightning deniers foresee something that they don’t want every Bitcoin user to discover.

I am not sure why you mentioned Lightning deniers here. The above sounds to me like a use of someone's Lightning node to mix coins.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 26, 2021, 06:41:42 AM
Did anyone of you who runs a Lightning routing node experience someone connecting privately to you, route coins through you, then close the channel? I believe Lightning deniers foresee something that they don’t want every Bitcoin user to discover. Cool
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