The Lightning Network FAQ - page 20.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Can someone solve me these queries that I have? So, I've gone to testnet.boltz.exchange to increase my receiving capacity as a lightning node. You just give LN-BTC and receive BTC, hence you've increased your receiving capacity by spending some your channel's reserve.

Alright, so I've tried this with my Electrum. I opened up a channel with somebody, sent the LN-BTC got my BTC, everything went fine. But, what exactly happens when I try the same with my lightning node?

Code:

./lightning-cli --testnet pay lntb10m1psagh4lpp5guw6fusvvxhy95auhscnh78s3sq6jmax5038n2smqsvst0r5xwmsdql2djkuepqw3hjqsj5gvsxzerywfjhxuccqzptxqrrsssp5fzl2n8tp23vrmlaza8pahr4hgn26gjy9uqxxrwmyvuhwz59khgwq9qyyssq9d9lx3y6ewauzke4uf0zelfc565e66kk95cq6gm7cufg3ruk8gwjznrpvrmf92t7vx8tzcqvchmjnggx9mhhhs97f7eg59yf05we93cpc2c3sp
{
"code": 210,
"message": "Ran out of routes to try after 971 attempts: see `paystatus`",
"attempts": [
{
"status": "pending",
"partid": 1,
"amount": "1000000000msat"
},
{
"status": "failed",
"failreason": "failed: WIRE_UNKNOWN_NEXT_PEER (reply from remote)",
"partid": 2,
"amount": "181272680msat",
"parent_partid": 1
},
{
"status": "pending",
"failreason": "No path found",
"partid": 195,
"amount": "181272680msat",
"parent_partid": 2
},

...

And lots of “No path found” messages.

Secondly, why does my lightningd log show these?

Code:

...
2022-01-04T14:51:11.145Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 878: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.145Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 882: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.146Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 883: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.146Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 887: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.146Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 888: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.147Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 892: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.219Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 894: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.343Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 896: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.400Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 901: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.401Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 903: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.401Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 921: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.402Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 930: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.402Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 931: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.402Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 936: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.402Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 941: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.403Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 869: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.403Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 870: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.403Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 691: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.422Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 970: No path found
2022-01-04T14:51:11.446Z INFO plugin-pay: id 0 partid 722: No path found

Thirdly, why does the lightning daemon closes when I close the Windows' cmd? Normally, when I'm ssh-ing using the cmd and close it, nothing changes from the RPi.

psycodad

legendary

Activity: 1612

Merit: 1608

精神分析的爸

Quote from: LoyceV on December 29, 2021, 07:30:29 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 29, 2021, 05:41:21 AM

Plus Chain Anals’ tracking of Lightning transactions actually helps increase the liquidity in the network and helps it scale, and makes it function better. Cool

Just like scammers and governments support the Tor network by running their own compromised nodes Wink

As long as enough scammers and competing governments join, and as long as users are aware of the risks, none of this stops the network.

Agreed. Thought I'd add the following article showing the dimensions in which these TLAs are operating:

Quote from: A Mysterious Threat Actor Is Running Hundreds of Malicious Tor Relays

Since at least 2017, a mysterious threat actor has run thousands of malicious servers in entry, middle, and exit positions of the Tor network in what a security researcher has described as an attempt to deanonymize Tor users. The Record reports:
Tracked as KAX17, the threat actor ran at its peak more than 900 malicious servers part of the Tor network, which typically tends to hover around a daily total of up to 9,000-10,000.
...

TL;DR: You are not as anonymous and private on tor as you might ~~think~~ hope.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 29, 2021, 05:41:21 AM

Plus Chain Anals’ tracking of Lightning transactions actually helps increase the liquidity in the network and helps it scale, and makes it function better. Cool

Just like scammers and governments support the Tor network by running their own compromised nodes Wink

As long as enough scammers and competing governments join, and as long as users are aware of the risks, none of this stops the network.

Wind_FURY

legendary

Activity: 2898

Merit: 1823

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 28, 2021, 01:15:43 PM

Quote from: hv_ on December 26, 2021, 10:18:26 AM

There is FATF Travel Rule compliance anyway. So LN might be classified as illegal coin mixxer by default

That is not going to happen any time soon, but in theory they can classify anything as illegal, walking on street, using paper money, owning gold, owning bitcoin or any other property.... oh wait some of those things were already illegal once upon a time.

One more reason why Lightning Network won't be made illegal is because they prefer to track in and get more tax extortion from people, hence why Chainalysis recently announced they are integrating and tracking Lightning Network for regulation compliance.

It's a well know fact that Chainalysis is working with many exchanges, companies and government agencies.

It’s probably because the government doesn’t have the regulatory-framework to work on to start shutting down Lightning routing nodes. They can’t stop centralized shitcoins, how can they censor Bitcoin and any decentralized offchain layers build on top of it.

Plus Chain Anals’ tracking of Lightning transactions actually helps increase the liquidity in the network and helps it scale, and makes it function better. Cool

dkbit98

legendary

Activity: 2212

Merit: 7064

Quote from: hv_ on December 26, 2021, 10:18:26 AM

There is FATF Travel Rule compliance anyway. So LN might be classified as illegal coin mixxer by default

That is not going to happen any time soon, but in theory they can classify anything as illegal, walking on street, using paper money, owning gold, owning bitcoin or any other property.... oh wait some of those things were already illegal once upon a time.
One more reason why Lightning Network won't be made illegal is because they prefer to track in and get more tax extortion from people, hence why Chainalysis recently announced they are integrating and tracking Lightning Network for regulation compliance.
It's a well know fact that Chainalysis is working with many exchanges, companies and government agencies.

HeRetiK

legendary

Activity: 2912

Merit: 2066

Quote from: hv_ on December 26, 2021, 10:18:26 AM

There is FATF Travel Rule compliance anyway. So LN might be classified as illegal coin mixxer by default

Unlikely, IMO.

First of all it's questionable whether LN node operators would fall under the definition of a VASP in the first place, as they arguably (1) merely provide ancillary infrastructure, which is explicitely excluded from the definition of a VASP and (2) acting as a VASP also implies running a business, for which the expected "profits" of running a LN node hardly qualify -- at least for 99.9% of nodes. The latter means that worst case you'd see large nodes replaced with many smaller ones. And exchanges that run their own LN nodes already know their customers anyway, if regulations tighten they can stop routing and only use LN for in- and out-going transactions.

Secondly the FATF travel rule would only apply to transactions of larger than USD 1000,- or its equivalent. Even assuming LN node operators would get ruled as VASPs and have FATF guideline-based legislation applied to them they can just adjust the maximum amount that can be sent via their channels to fall within regulation. I believe even now most LN transactions fall well below that limit anyway.

Wind_FURY

legendary

Activity: 2898

Merit: 1823

Quote from: hv_ on December 26, 2021, 10:18:26 AM

There is FATF Travel Rule compliance anyway. So LN might be classified as illegal coin mixxer by default

The cat is out of the bag. In fact, Bitcoin is classified as an illegal currency by default, but because of technical break throughs, and the genius of the implementation of HashCash/POW in Bitcoin, it could not be censored. Lightning will be the same. It will only increase in liquidity provided by Chain Anals, Routing Nodes, and Users.

hv_

legendary

Activity: 2520

Merit: 1055

Clean Code and Scale

There is FATF Travel Rule compliance anyway. So LN might be classified as illegal coin mixxer by default

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5829

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 15, 2021, 10:21:01 AM

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 13, 2021, 09:26:09 AM

Interesting... I guess they'll open lots of channels with lots of nodes? It seems to me that they'll need lot of liquidity.

I don't know exactly how they plan to do this, but it's with using their KYT software I am sure they will connect with all exchanges that accept LN payments.
They are also monitoring many addresses from ofac list, but it's not going to be so easy with lightning network, unless they have some actors inside.

How can they know where the money is going, though? I mean, sure, they will be able to ask exchanges who bought how much BTC and which hop it was next sent to, but it will be difficult to determine where it ends up after the last onion 'peel' is removed.

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 15, 2021, 10:21:01 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 13, 2021, 01:33:57 PM

I'm very interested to see what / how they want to try spying into LN.

I a sure they won't tell anyone how they are doing that spying part but I am sure they have huge funding from governments and other big tech corporations.
LN tracking for them is just one small puzzle part in much bigger picture of tracking everyone and everything.

Sure, it's just that conceptually I don't get which possibilities there could be asides from usual onion routing attacks like controlling a vast amount of nodes. One issue for them might be that compared to attacks on the Tor network, is that channels 'cost' real money. It's not just setting up AWS instances, but also funding and maintaining tons of well-connected nodes.
If they were to instead create one huge node that will connect most people through 1 hop (alternative to maintaining lots and lots of nodes), it would quickly get noticed on LN observer maps and stand out as very suspicious to node operators.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Rath_ on December 15, 2021, 10:10:02 AM

Maybe you also need to run Electrum through Tor proxy? I am not sure because I used Electrum only with clearnnet nodes, but it would make sense.

Went through Tor. Results:

No outgoing transactions in history. In my node's log:

Code:

2021-12-15T14:31:34.512Z INFO 0348800b9c5e68fe052d6b240350ae5412bbfc7fee7456ec4d725f7c7beff333f2-chan#3: Parsing funding_created

dkbit98

legendary

Activity: 2212

Merit: 7064

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 13, 2021, 09:26:09 AM

Interesting... I guess they'll open lots of channels with lots of nodes? It seems to me that they'll need lot of liquidity.

I don't know exactly how they plan to do this, but it's with using their KYT software I am sure they will connect with all exchanges that accept LN payments.
They are also monitoring many addresses from ofac list, but it's not going to be so easy with lightning network, unless they have some actors inside.

Quote from: n0nce on December 13, 2021, 01:33:57 PM

I'm very interested to see what / how they want to try spying into LN.

I a sure they won't tell anyone how they are doing that spying part but I am sure they have huge funding from governments and other big tech corporations.
LN tracking for them is just one small puzzle part in much bigger picture of tracking everyone and everything.

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3132

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 15, 2021, 10:04:08 AM

Did it connect with my node, but run a command that isn't recognized?

Maybe you also need to run Electrum through Tor proxy? I am not sure because I used Electrum only with clearnnet nodes, but it would make sense.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Rath_ on December 15, 2021, 10:00:59 AM

Electrum failed to find an IP address of your c-lightning node in its local map of the network. You need to specify it manually.

039a7e0982d3b0f967dfc18b8b69c9e8cafd035985eff1832258daf08de119b10e@pn4dvsmjxpkemwsuhocrytdpfgrqjzbd6zagasyrg4msce63sldxtlqd.onion

Electrum now returns me:

Code:

Could not open channel: ConnStringFormatError('Hostname does not resolve (getaddrinfo failed)')

Did it connect with my node, but run a command that isn't recognized?

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3132

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 15, 2021, 09:46:31 AM

So... what's going on?

Electrum failed to find an IP address of your c-lightning node in its local map of the network. You need to specify it manually.

039a7e0982d3b0f967dfc18b8b69c9e8cafd035985eff1832258daf08de119b10e@pn4dvsmjxpkemwsuhocrytdpfgrqjzbd6zagasyrg4msce63sldxtlqd.onion

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Alright, so I installed c-lightning on my RPi and it's, indeed, better for a newbie like me. It seems more simple than LND, but I need your help with something. I opened a channel with - 026c0f266268c1edc4e1f7e17ba6aa18979fee47f059e46a40cafbbcc56ab3df57. (d1d5720a39fe5786e972d1fc7ca1badd4dfb8c31dea62d45978f77b3dd9fc5e6)

Code:

bitcoin@raspibolt:~/lightning/cli $ ./lightning-cli --network=testnet getinfo
{
"id": "039a7e0982d3b0f967dfc18b8b69c9e8cafd035985eff1832258daf08de119b10e",
"alias": "VIOLENTCHASER",
"color": "039a7e",
"num_peers": 1,
"num_pending_channels": 0,
"num_active_channels": 1,
"num_inactive_channels": 0,
"address": [
{
"type": "torv3",
"address": "pn4dvsmjxpkemwsuhocrytdpfgrqjzbd6zagasyrg4msce63sldxtlqd.onion",
"port": 9735
}
],
"binding": [
{
"type": "ipv4",
"address": "127.0.0.1",
"port": 9735
}
],
"version": "v0.10.2-145-g5bbe3fe",
"blockheight": 2131247,
"network": "testnet",
"msatoshi_fees_collected": 0,
"fees_collected_msat": "0msat",
"lightning-dir": "/home/bitcoin/.lightning/testnet"
}

Code:

bitcoin@raspibolt:~/lightning/cli $ ./lightning-cli --network=testnet listfunds
{
"outputs": [
{
"txid": "d1d5720a39fe5786e972d1fc7ca1badd4dfb8c31dea62d45978f77b3dd9fc5e6",
"output": 0,
"value": 999846,
"amount_msat": "999846000msat",
"scriptpubkey": "0014bcddf25998e909d839b327d0f1bdabe7e0e68bd4",
"address": "tb1qhnwlykvcayyaswdnylg0r0dtulswdz75m44y2l",
"status": "confirmed",
"blockheight": 2131240,
"reserved": false
}
],
"channels": [
{
"peer_id": "026c0f266268c1edc4e1f7e17ba6aa18979fee47f059e46a40cafbbcc56ab3df57",
"connected": true,
"state": "CHANNELD_NORMAL",
"short_channel_id": "2131240x43x1",
"channel_sat": 1000000,
"our_amount_msat": "1000000000msat",
"channel_total_sat": 1000000,
"amount_msat": "1000000000msat",
"funding_txid": "d1d5720a39fe5786e972d1fc7ca1badd4dfb8c31dea62d45978f77b3dd9fc5e6",
"funding_output": 1
}
]
}

I'd, now, like to try to open a channel from my Electrum with my node.

So... what's going on?

HeRetiK

legendary

Activity: 2912

Merit: 2066

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: n0nce on December 13, 2021, 01:33:57 PM

But it doesn't change that they can't look into the 'onion' packets and e.g. track who sends money to whom and stuff like that.

With timing attack, it's theoretically possible to reveal some information.

I could imagine tracking larger payments by probing channel liquidity before and after the payment of interest has been made. If successful, you'd see a path of misbalanced (or rebalanced) channels along the route the payment took. Probably not reliable enough though due to the fuzziness of the data; also rather conspicuous since you'd have to send probing payments / payment attempts.

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5829

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 13, 2021, 09:07:48 AM

I don't know if you heard the news but Chainalysis launches support for Lightning Network after they noticed how LN second layer protocol recently gained more popularity.
Funny thing is how they created censored twitter post not allowing anyone to comment anything on that tweet unless they approved it.
They plan to release Chainalysis KYT software for monitoring Lighting Network transactions, it will show ''risky'' activity and other insights.
https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/lightning-network-support/

I'm very interested to see what / how they want to try spying into LN. Sure, they can create channels to lots of nodes and find out a few bits of information. But it doesn't change that they can't look into the 'onion' packets and e.g. track who sends money to whom and stuff like that.
Not sure how they will find out any activity, be it 'risky' or not, since in LN even if they put themselves between all senders and receivers, it will be hard to even trace where the money is going after the next hop. At least that's my understanding of the Onion routing protocol.

Also, we could just all configure our nodes to avoid Chainalysis nodes on the route (source routing).

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 13, 2021, 09:07:48 AM

[...]

Interesting... I guess they'll open lots of channels with lots of nodes? It seems to me that they'll need lot of liquidity.

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 13, 2021, 09:07:48 AM

Funny thing is how they created censored twitter post not allowing anyone to comment anything on that tweet

The funniest part of their twitter account is the biography:

Quote

Building trust in blockchains among people, businesses and governments. Our crypto compliance and investigation software powers hundreds of top institutions.

Let me rephrase it, to make them look honest:

Quote

We help governments and businesses to censor transactions and make your crypto less fungible. Beware. We're watching you.

dkbit98

legendary

Activity: 2212

Merit: 7064

I don't know if you heard the news but Chainalysis launches support for Lightning Network after they noticed how LN second layer protocol recently gained more popularity.
Funny thing is how they created censored twitter post not allowing anyone to comment anything on that tweet unless they approved it.
They plan to release Chainalysis KYT software for monitoring Lighting Network transactions, it will show ''risky'' activity and other insights.
https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/lightning-network-support/

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3074

Quote from: HeRetiK on December 07, 2021, 08:04:30 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 07, 2021, 04:24:03 PM

I would add that tor on it's own may not be enough to anonymize yourself from persistent attackers. There are various known attack methods that can obtain or infer information about tor nodes/onion domains, but mitigations exist also. Seeing as LN nodes value constant uptime, I'd guess that being a persistent attacker will eventually pay off.

Could you share info on attacks as applicable to LN nodes? This one seems fairly relevant, but I didn't find much else:
https://blog.torproject.org/announcing-vanguards-add-onion-services/

(except for various DDoS research and the classical OPSEC failures when using TOR to browse the internet)

yes, this.

there's add-on software that mitigates, called literally 'vanguard'. But it looks like tor devs are integrating that plugin to tor itself anyway (as per the article you linked)

Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 20. (Read 32342 times)