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Topic: The Lightning Network node experience - page 2. (Read 3380 times)

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 733
Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
June 22, 2023, 01:06:29 PM
To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

Since we provide a service which requires an always running computer and funds stored in channels (hot wallets), we have costs and provide value; therefore we can choose to ask users for fees in return for routing their payments. Their wallet can / should try to find the cheapest routes, but usually you do need to pay a few sats per payment to reach a 'far' (many hops) destination.
Can you "cash out" bitcoins received via Lighting Network without closing the channel? How long can you leave the LN channel open? As far as I know, when you use LN, you only pay traditional mempool fees when you close the channel and I was wondering, what if I don't close the channel (Will it close automatically?), will I still be able to cash out my coins?
Btw how much do you charge? Do you have a certain ratio, like, charge 1/10 of mempool fees?
full member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 227
June 22, 2023, 12:34:34 PM
Quote
My node has successfully routed 143 payments (until the 31st October) with ~0.09 BTC capacity and 5 active channels. Here's a breakdown of my earnings from payment routing into each month:

Hey fellas, read through the thread but I’m not sure if I understand what’s payment routing and how you guys are making money out of it. Is there any step by step guide on how to set up this and run it on a PC.
The Lightning Network is a... network... of bidirectional payment channels. Visualizing that looks something like this:
[...]
1. I have a pc which I can keep running 24x7
If you want to route payments, you do need a 24/7 running PC, yes. It can be a cheap old beater, though, as shown here: [Guide] How to run a Bitcoin Core full node for under 50 bucks!

2. Do I need any sort of mining equipment, if yes then what’s for the LN?
No, there is no mining taking place.

3. Am I right to think that it is peer to peer based system, through this system I become a middle connector and get paid for forwarding the payments?
That's correct. More reading here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-lightning-network-faq-5158920

If there is ready thread on how to perform above actions then I would be grateful if a link is shared for the same. I saw another thread from the OP but that was again above my head. Basically I have zero idea about this so guidance is appreciated.  Smiley
If you want to start from scratch, I have this regularly updated guide:
[Guide] FULL NODE OpenSUSE 15.3: bitcoind + electrs + c-lightning + RTL

The message from you is so clear and right on the point. Thank you very much for sharing everything. Specially the last thread is very important. Looking at the configuration I am already set with the old laptop which is laying around doing nothing. I think I can really use it as my playground and start doing some serious stuff on it.

One point I read about hot wallet and how it could get buggy and funds may get stolen, do I need to have antivirus software or something which can block such external access or it's just nothing about that?

In your full node thread you have mentioned about 4 different software that is Bitcoin Core, ElectRS, C-lightening, Ride the lightening. Putting yourself at my position and thinking I am completely stranger to the set up, which one would you chose to get started with? [ in terms of complexity of set up]
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5811
not your keys, not your coins!
June 21, 2023, 07:27:00 PM
Quote
My node has successfully routed 143 payments (until the 31st October) with ~0.09 BTC capacity and 5 active channels. Here's a breakdown of my earnings from payment routing into each month:

Hey fellas, read through the thread but I’m not sure if I understand what’s payment routing and how you guys are making money out of it. Is there any step by step guide on how to set up this and run it on a PC.
The Lightning Network is a... network... of bidirectional payment channels. Visualizing that looks something like this:



To be able to send BTC through Lightning to another user, without opening a direct channel to them, you need to utilize routing.
'Routing' in this context means that a Lightning node operator receives a payment from your node through one channel and simultaneously sends a payment of the same amount out through a different channel. Chain that as many times as required until the intended receiver got the money and you've got a Lightning payment.

Since we provide a service which requires an always running computer and funds stored in channels (hot wallets), we have costs and provide value; therefore we can choose to ask users for fees in return for routing their payments. Their wallet can / should try to find the cheapest routes, but usually you do need to pay a few sats per payment to reach a 'far' (many hops) destination.

1. I have a pc which I can keep running 24x7
If you want to route payments, you do need a 24/7 running PC, yes. It can be a cheap old beater, though, as shown here: [Guide] How to run a Bitcoin Core full node for under 50 bucks!

2. Do I need any sort of mining equipment, if yes then what’s for the LN?
No, there is no mining taking place.

3. Am I right to think that it is peer to peer based system, through this system I become a middle connector and get paid for forwarding the payments?
That's correct. More reading here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-lightning-network-faq-5158920

If there is ready thread on how to perform above actions then I would be grateful if a link is shared for the same. I saw another thread from the OP but that was again above my head. Basically I have zero idea about this so guidance is appreciated.  Smiley
If you want to start from scratch, I have this regularly updated guide:
[Guide] FULL NODE OpenSUSE 15.3: bitcoind + electrs + c-lightning + RTL
full member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 227
June 21, 2023, 03:06:51 AM
Quote
My node has successfully routed 143 payments (until the 31st October) with ~0.09 BTC capacity and 5 active channels. Here's a breakdown of my earnings from payment routing into each month:

Hey fellas, read through the thread but I’m not sure if I understand what’s payment routing and how you guys are making money out of it. Is there any step by step guide on how to set up this and run it on a PC.

1. I have a pc which I can keep running 24x7
2. Do I need any sort of mining equipment, if yes then what’s for the LN?
3. Am I right to think that it is peer to peer based system, through this system I become a middle connector and get paid for forwarding the payments?

If there is ready thread on how to perform above actions then I would be grateful if a link is shared for the same. I saw another thread from the OP but that was again above my head. Basically I have zero idea about this so guidance is appreciated.  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
June 17, 2023, 01:49:23 PM
What exactly is shady to speed up a transaction with too low fee? In my opinion there's nothing wrong with that. It's your change output and you can do with it whatever you like. Actually more interesting is why you've chosen such a low fee of 6 sat/vB with current mempool congestion. When I read your posts from Thursday, I had to scratch my head a little bit.  Wink

I did a CPFP transaction but instead of using change, I used the output itself. yeah, it was shady to me because I never used CPFP transactions, didn't know how they worked in practice and it was a first time to me.
But I had to use an external plugin to get the private keys out of CLN as descriptors, then, create a file with these descriptors, import them in my Bitcoin Core node, rescan part of the blockchain and only then I performed the CPFP transaction. After that, I still had to run a rescan in my CLN node so that it detect the 1st transaction as already spent! Otherwise, CLN would "see" twice the value.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 1010
Crypto Swap Exchange
June 17, 2023, 06:23:05 AM
What exactly is shady to speed up a transaction with too low fee? In my opinion there's nothing wrong with that. It's your change output and you can do with it whatever you like. Actually more interesting is why you've chosen such a low fee of 6 sat/vB with current mempool congestion. When I read your posts from Thursday, I had to scratch my head a little bit.  Wink
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
June 16, 2023, 07:00:54 PM
@n0nce, I'm actually doing something shady with the help of someone to try to speed up this transaction that I broadcast from Relai (no RBF implementation) to my CLN node.
I'm trying to do a CPFP transaction with higher fee to see if I can get both in a block sooner!
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
June 15, 2023, 06:28:13 AM
Yeah, I can do a 1M channel. But will do it tomorrow, ok? It's late here and I'm heading to bed now!
We will arrange this during the day of tomorrow!
Sure, that works. Smiley Let's do dual-fund, 1M each, that will result in a pretty good total capacity of 2M sats. You can message me whenever you have time.

I sent some funds to my LN node yesterday but I might have chosen a low fee and it may take a while! The fee chosen was 6sats/vByte! It's quite low due to the crap of Ordinals and Inscriptions and all that garbage!
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5811
not your keys, not your coins!
June 15, 2023, 06:20:19 AM
Yeah, I can do a 1M channel. But will do it tomorrow, ok? It's late here and I'm heading to bed now!
We will arrange this during the day of tomorrow!
Sure, that works. Smiley Let's do dual-fund, 1M each, that will result in a pretty good total capacity of 2M sats. You can message me whenever you have time.
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
June 14, 2023, 07:13:55 PM
How much you have available?
How about 1M per side?

BTW, this is my May experience:

Nice, I got such a 'middle finger' shape towards the end of the month, as well.. Wink



Yeah, I can do a 1M channel. But will do it tomorrow, ok? It's late here and I'm heading to bed now!
We will arrange this during the day of tomorrow!

heheh, the midle finger pattern... Didn't even noticed it! xD
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5811
not your keys, not your coins!
June 14, 2023, 06:32:44 PM
How much you have available?
How about 1M per side?

BTW, this is my May experience:

Nice, I got such a 'middle finger' shape towards the end of the month, as well.. Wink

hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
June 03, 2023, 06:01:14 PM
This year has been quiet for me. I was over 2 months without forwarding any payment.
Mostly the same here, as well. In part it's due to some peers closing channels, so I have some on-chain balance on my node now. If you want, we could actually open a channel.
Are you running Core Lightning? In that case, we could even dual-fund.. Smiley

Hi... I didn't notice your reply.
Yeah sure, we can open a channel but I actually have to either try to re-eanble the dev features (I'm still on that v23.0.5-modded) and I had to disable those features because I waas getting buggy messages and couldn't connect to more than half of my peers!
How much you have available?

BTW, this is my May experience:
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5811
not your keys, not your coins!
This year has been quiet for me. I was over 2 months without forwarding any payment.
Mostly the same here, as well. In part it's due to some peers closing channels, so I have some on-chain balance on my node now. If you want, we could actually open a channel.
Are you running Core Lightning? In that case, we could even dual-fund.. Smiley
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
This year has been quiet for me. I was over 2 months without forwarding any payment.

January


February


March and April -- 0 forwardings

I did a few this month. Will update when it's over!

As for rebalancing, I've been talking to me channel peers and asking them if they are willing to share the fees for rebalancing our channels! Some have been completely cooperative, some not. But still, even with other peers willing to share fees, I'm not sure if the fees I collect are on the green to cover the fees for rebalancing!
copper member
Activity: 33
Merit: 27
March 04, 2023, 06:16:41 PM
Many thanks for your observation and the recommendation... I'm doing that straight away.
Best regards
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5811
not your keys, not your coins!
March 04, 2023, 02:16:14 PM
~
I find it a bit hard to understand your issue, what you tried, what you want to achieve and where you got stuck. You may want to create a new thread about it on this board instead of continuing here in this thread.
Add some more information and maybe try to follow the advice by StackOverflow for asking a good question.
copper member
Activity: 33
Merit: 27
March 03, 2023, 08:23:01 PM
My experience in giving out Bitcoins as prize to teenagers did not last long, there is little practical usage available to the quiz winners. I am now trying out an ecosystem with LN to get the project back.
I am not a techie, so I bought a Raspiblitz 9 months ago. I successfully get the LN running, fund the wallet and open channels…
My node's URI is 03443d4d2248e25ed0bc726aaba3a9a858561f452f62e3c3baa36abe5d99e74d65@hth3b3nfasox6r5qhj6ih53yixbag53yl2jxreeeccplfn4jl7fqhcyd.onion:9735
I want to create a more practical community of LN users, so my node is to enhance an instant payout to the wallets of my players (soccer). I give out small amount of Satoshi as prize to all my players after winning 3 matches without conceding goals in a row.  
They are excited and the objective provide an environment that permit constant exchange between themselves…
My problem now is that during an updating my LN channels were not completely synchronized and since then I could not use the LND wallet to send out satoshi …
It is still working and 100% synchronized, (I have access but lack the know-how)…
I need help on how to correctly use the LND wallets and to understand this LN system; I want to be a good guide to the ecosystem evolving out of the scenario…
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3131
March 03, 2023, 06:12:29 PM
Core-Lightning v23.02 has just been released. There are two things worth pointing out:

NEW experimental feature: peer storage - back up your encrypted emergency channel backup with your peers
Protocol updates: Offers (BOLT12) and dual-funding breaking changes to comply with updated lightning spec

You can learn more about the peer backup feature here. Note that this backup allows you only to close all of your channels (as the other peer stores a Static Channel Backup). Closing channels through the SCB require the other party's cooperation so it should be your last resort anyway.
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
January 10, 2023, 05:17:17 PM
Yes, I know how Submarine Swaps work. I just couldn't understand how would those work for the purpose you mentioned, I guess.
Simply swap those on-chain funds from your LN node for Lightning funds (on the same node). There's no way to tell which channel they will end up topping up (usually multiple, through multiple routes), but if you're not happy with the end result (e.g. they made an already unbalanced channel more unbalanced), you can quickly fix it by manually rebalancing.

I would also like to suggest to people to come up with a simple way of showing the fees you all hhave on your channels, if it is doable. Small nodes should be easy to do it.
Something like an excel sheet where we use columns for channel size, base_fee and ppm. I think no need to include channel IDs. What you guys think?
Something like this may really help learn from each other and maximize routing & collected fees. It would be best as a Core Lightning / RTL plugin, I guess, that exports all relevant info with one click. There are many factors to consider: total funds, balancing, channel count, channel size, fee rates, etc.

To start, the fees thing, and as an experience, to see how it goes, I'll create a SpreadSheets with a sheet per user. I'll start with me and maybe you (n0nce) if you want. If more people want, I'll then add more sheets. Or what you guys think it's best?
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5811
not your keys, not your coins!
January 09, 2023, 02:51:09 PM
Yes, I know how Submarine Swaps work. I just couldn't understand how would those work for the purpose you mentioned, I guess.
Simply swap those on-chain funds from your LN node for Lightning funds (on the same node). There's no way to tell which channel they will end up topping up (usually multiple, through multiple routes), but if you're not happy with the end result (e.g. they made an already unbalanced channel more unbalanced), you can quickly fix it by manually rebalancing.

I would also like to suggest to people to come up with a simple way of showing the fees you all hhave on your channels, if it is doable. Small nodes should be easy to do it.
Something like an excel sheet where we use columns for channel size, base_fee and ppm. I think no need to include channel IDs. What you guys think?
Something like this may really help learn from each other and maximize routing & collected fees. It would be best as a Core Lightning / RTL plugin, I guess, that exports all relevant info with one click. There are many factors to consider: total funds, balancing, channel count, channel size, fee rates, etc.
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