The Lightning Network node experience - page 6.

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5834

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 13, 2022, 03:03:06 AM

Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 05:43:13 PM

On the other hand, it will be interesting to see if what Rath said comes true; you could get way too much usage of some channels in one direction, which will require you to constantly rebalance.

Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 05:43:13 PM

The idea of making a few sats e.g. a few thousand over a couple months, is that they could cover on-chain opening / closing fees in the long run and allow to run the node at zero cost.

I gotta tell you, I'd absolutely trade a few sats for the ability to transfer bitcoin instantly. Even if I have the power to charge a few sats, just to cover the on and off-chain fees (which I will start from next month), the benefit of making transactions via Lightning essentially for free is priceless.

So yeah. According to my turn of mind, a few sats is a price I'm willing to pay, even if I don't charge anything.

Sure; but it's not just about cost, also about channel balancing and reducing manual work. It's obvious why balanced channels are required to keep the node maximally functional and usable.
In theory, if you can get your fee policies balanced well, you could get channels to always be balanced due to not being overused in one direction compared to the other; thus always being ready to use (for payments and invoices as well as routing attempts).

Today I went ahead and manually balanced all my channels (which also cost a few hundred sats in routing fees) and immediately routed 6 payments over the day, after weeks with barely any activity.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 05:43:13 PM

On the other hand, it will be interesting to see if what Rath said comes true; you could get way too much usage of some channels in one direction, which will require you to constantly rebalance.

Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 05:43:13 PM

The idea of making a few sats e.g. a few thousand over a couple months, is that they could cover on-chain opening / closing fees in the long run and allow to run the node at zero cost.

I gotta tell you, I'd absolutely trade a few sats for the ability to transfer bitcoin instantly. Even if I have the power to charge a few sats, just to cover the on and off-chain fees (which I will start from next month), the benefit of making transactions via Lightning essentially for free is priceless.

So yeah. According to my turn of mind, a few sats is a price I'm willing to pay, even if I don't charge anything.

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5834

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 12, 2022, 03:50:49 PM

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 02:54:22 PM

So, how do you keep your fees right now?

It's [0, 0] currently on every channel. I'll leave it up like that, just to see how many transactions I will route in one month. Then, I may rise the ppm fee.

That's an interesting experiment! I may join you.
I do get what you're saying: if a node is getting 20 sats in a month or whatever, it may as well set everything to 0 fee and maybe help the network more by getting a little bit more usage.
On the other hand, it will be interesting to see if what Rath said comes true; you could get way too much usage of some channels in one direction, which will require you to constantly rebalance. In that case, you could increase fees until the usage starts to drop to a little bit more normal levels. It's not just about rebalancing costs (it's all Lightning; doesn't cost more than a few sats), but about the work / effort you need to put in for checking the node regularly.

The idea of making a few sats e.g. a few thousand over a couple months, is that they could cover on-chain opening / closing fees in the long run and allow to run the node at zero cost.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 02:54:22 PM

So, how do you keep your fees right now?

It's [0, 0] currently on every channel. I'll leave it up like that, just to see how many transactions I will route in one month. Then, I may rise the ppm fee.

darkv0rt3x

hero member

Activity: 1274

Merit: 681

I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 12, 2022, 07:59:19 AM

Quote from: Rath_ on July 11, 2022, 05:27:30 PM

[...]

So, the TL;DR is: Charge the sats you need to rebalance your channels?

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 07:51:30 AM

I didn't understand. You say that you have 0 base and 0 ppm, but then you say that you don't see a reason on charging so little money!

Yes. I don't find a reason to charge 1 sat per transaction.

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 07:51:30 AM

If you don't see reason to charge so little money, why you have your fees at 0?

Because, I don't see a reason to charge a little more than that.

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 07:51:30 AM

And another question is if you have both base and ppm at 0, how did you end up making sats?

I wasn't free of charge at the start. Later I set it to 0.

So, how do you keep your fees right now? [0,0], [something,0], [0,something], [something,something] ?

I have set 2 more of my channels to [0, something]. I still want to make a few sats!

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Rath_ on July 11, 2022, 05:27:30 PM

[...]

So, the TL;DR is: Charge the sats you need to rebalance your channels?

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 07:51:30 AM

I didn't understand. You say that you have 0 base and 0 ppm, but then you say that you don't see a reason on charging so little money!

Yes. I don't find a reason to charge 1 sat per transaction.

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 07:51:30 AM

If you don't see reason to charge so little money, why you have your fees at 0?

Because, I don't see a reason to charge a little more than that.

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on July 12, 2022, 07:51:30 AM

And another question is if you have both base and ppm at 0, how did you end up making sats?

I wasn't free of charge at the start. Later I set it to 0.

darkv0rt3x

hero member

Activity: 1274

Merit: 681

I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 11, 2022, 09:29:42 AM

Both my base and fee rate are 0. I just don't see a reason on charging so little money. What's your thoughts on fee policy? Is there anyone who makes thousands of sats from just routing transactions, every month? And, is it worth it, considering the on-chain fees?

I didn't understand. You say that you have 0 base and 0 ppm, but then you say that you don't see a reason on charging so little money!
If you don't see reason to charge so little money, why you have your fees at 0? And another question is if you have both base and ppm at 0, how did you end up making sats?

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3132

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 11, 2022, 09:29:42 AM

Both my base and fee rate are 0. I just don't see a reason on charging so little money. What's your thoughts on fee policy? Is there anyone who makes thousands of sats from just routing transactions, every month? And, is it worth it, considering the on-chain fees?

You will eventually start charging fees as your channels become often unbalanced. And yes, there are people who earn thousands of sats every month. A few people shared their stats in the WO thread, but I can't find them at the moment.

You may also notice that quite a lot of nodes have their base fee set to zero. If you are wondering why that's the case, read about #zerobasefee.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

BlackHatCoiner's Lightning Vortex.
Current capacity: 0.07998659 BTC, from 8 channels.

July's report:

Both my base and fee rate are 0. I just don't see a reason on charging so little money. What's your thoughts on fee policy? Is there anyone who makes thousands of sats from just routing transactions, every month? And, is it worth it, considering the on-chain fees?

darkv0rt3x

hero member

Activity: 1274

Merit: 681

I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Shouldn't you guys take this discussion to maybe a new thread? Or to the FAQ one?
Anyway, I'm pasting here my June month, regarding my forwards, which was a bit better but nothing out of the ordinary.

Cricktor

hero member

Activity: 714

Merit: 1010

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: konfuzius5278 on July 08, 2022, 04:16:36 AM

...

I have not yet used Core Lightning, so I might be on a wrong path to the darkness. You don't fund a peer, you fund a channel when you open one to a peer. You should give more details what exactly you tried to do, otherwise no Ligthning master can help you.

A lot to learn you have, patient with yourself and the Core Lightning force you must be, young padawan!

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3132

Quote from: konfuzius5278 on July 08, 2022, 04:16:36 AM

no plugin like GUI I get startet

There is no GUI. You need to install either RTL or spark wallet.

Quote from: konfuzius5278 on July 08, 2022, 04:16:36 AM

......and peers get immidiatly disconnected before I can fund them.... no idea what I am doing wrong Angry

Add the following lines to your config (replace DIRECTORY with any location that suits you the best):

Code:

log-file=DIRECTORY/lightning.log
log-level=debug

Restart your node, try opening a channel again and check the log file if it fails.

Quote from: konfuzius5278 on July 08, 2022, 04:16:36 AM

.not sure if the exportet HEX file hsm_secret does its job....

It is a backup of your node's on-chain wallet. You should also consider setting up a plugin which will back up your channels.

konfuzius5278

member

Activity: 637

Merit: 11

So.....after 4 days and I get a running Core Lightning node....but now....I could throw it out of the window......no plugin like GUI I get startet......and peers get immidiatly disconnected before I can fund them.... no idea what I am doing wrong Angry

And I thought the Bitcoin Core would be possible to dump the keys but the core has own Mainchain keys.....not sure if the exportet HEX file hsm_secret does its job..... Huh

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5834

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: Rath_ on July 06, 2022, 06:44:05 PM

Quote from: n0nce on July 06, 2022, 06:10:19 PM

Buying inbound channels, e.g. from LNBig or Lightning Pool.

The only catch is that those services reserve the right to close the channel at any time, especially if there isn't much activity.

Sure; they also increase centralization. Creating channels between each other with friends and community members is definitely going to be better for Lightning decentralization. Just wanted to put that out there.

Quote from: Rath_ on July 06, 2022, 06:44:05 PM

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend Lightning Lab's proprietary products to anyone. Liquidity ads are far more superior as they take advantage of dual-funding and the gossip protocol; you don't have to install any additional software. This feature is available only in c-lightning, but its developers are heavily working on including it in the official Lightning specification. Although, I don't expect LND devs to implement it quickly once the specs are finalised as that would kill their product.

Good point! It's not a secret that I'm not a fan of Lightning Labs / LND in general and what they've done against great additions like BOLT12. I actually meant to dig out liquidity ads, but found 'Lightning Pool' instead, sorry about that!

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3132

Quote from: n0nce on July 06, 2022, 06:10:19 PM

Buying inbound channels, e.g. from LNBig or Lightning Pool.

The only catch is that those services reserve the right to close the channel at any time, especially if there isn't much activity.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend Lightning Lab's proprietary products to anyone. Liquidity ads are far more superior as they take advantage of dual-funding and the gossip protocol; you don't have to install any additional software. This feature is available only in c-lightning, but its developers are heavily working on including it in the official Lightning specification. Although, I don't expect LND devs to implement it quickly once the specs are finalised as that would kill their product.

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5834

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: Rath_ on July 06, 2022, 05:51:37 PM

[...]
Also, c-lightning is currently the only implementation which supports dual-funded channels. Such channels might be balanced as soon as they are opened as both parties contribute funds. Note that this is still an experimental feature and very few nodes support it. I opened about 3 dual-funded channels with other bitcointalk members.

Other ways to get inbound liquidity are:

Buying inbound channels, e.g. from LNBig or Lightning Pool.
Asking someone to create an inbound channel with you.
Participating in a liquidity swap.

In the first two cases, you only get inbound liquidity. You will then need to create a 'outbound' channel which you fund and then theoretically that should suffice to rebalance them to be both roughly balanced.

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3132

Quote from: konfuzius5278 on July 06, 2022, 12:45:40 AM

Still the remaining question. There are tools/plugins to re-balance the channels. But how you do the inital fund of the "other side of the cannel" (incoming?).

You can gain incoming liquidity in a couple of different ways:

- pay for some service/goods,
- use a third-party service to exchange your off-chan coins for on-chain ones (ex. Boltz, ZigZag),
- contact your channel partner and do the same as above (it will be much cheaper, but there's more trust involved),
- circular rebalance (only possible if you have at least two channels; one with lots of inbound liquidity and the other one with outbound capacity).

If you have a hard time understanding it, don't worry. Let me know and I will give you more detailed explanations for each case.

Also, c-lightning is currently the only implementation which supports dual-funded channels. Such channels might be balanced as soon as they are opened as both parties contribute funds. Note that this is still an experimental feature and very few nodes support it. I opened about 3 dual-funded channels with other bitcointalk members.

konfuzius5278

member

Activity: 637

Merit: 11

Thanks @n0nce & @Cricktor for your help.

I was inspired yesterday by the thread and done some own research again and found also Core Lighting with plugins. Currently waiting for sync the BTC Core. Lets see

Still the remaining question. There are tools/plugins to re-balance the channels. But how you do the inital fund of the "other side of the cannel" (incoming?).

Thanks

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5834

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: konfuzius5278 on July 05, 2022, 04:04:13 AM

[...]

Cricktor correctly answered your question, but I have a few remarks.
[1] If you want to save money, a cheap, 'local' node might be a better option in the long run. You will need a VPS with a ton of storage for the blockchain and various LN databases which isn't cheap.
[2] Core Lightning (previously C-Lightning) is more lightweight and needs less resources, so that will play into your hands if trying to run the whole thing on cheap hardware (even if you do go the VPS route).
[3] In case you decide to go for Core Lightning, I believe that my full node install guide will be very easy to follow. You can skip electrs if you don't need it and just install Bitcoin Core and Core Lightning.

Cricktor

hero member

Activity: 714

Merit: 1010

Crypto Swap Exchange

@konfuzius5278 have a look at the RaspiBolt LND setup at https://raspibolt.org/guide/lightning/, it's easy to adapt for Ubuntu and steps are easy to follow, depending on your knowledge of Debian based Linux. There're not many Raspi specific parts, mainly for downloads and appropriate arch of those.

Don't forget to have a look how data directories are laid out for RaspiBolt and adjust accordingly or copy the whole setup for your Ubuntu VPS.

Topic: The Lightning Network node experience - page 6. (Read 3480 times)