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Topic: The NEXT generation of Physical Bitcoins... - page 8. (Read 19104 times)

sr. member
Activity: 366
Merit: 258
Couple of questions, forgive me if they are answered but I can't see it:

1. Can one pay in bitcoin?
2. Can the ownership of the physical bitcoins be transferred from owner to owner without needing to redeem the coin? I.e. can I sell my Titan Bitcoins on in a few years time to another owner?

3. Is there a list of which coins from the current batch(es) are in circulation? You've sold some on eBay but I was curious about how many have now sold...



Between private sales and public ones, we have sent around 210 coins out the door.  Many of the early coins went to investors that asked me to put them up on eBay (they wanted a quick exit and doubled their money by doing so).  The pace of sales looks like it will be speeding up quickly though, as we roll out promotions on other sites and in a few local stores.  I don't expect that the production run of 10,000 will last through the end of the year.

We don't currently publish a public list of the coins in circulation, but I'll look into setting that up.
hero member
Activity: 906
Merit: 1034
BTC: the beginning of stake-based public resources
Couple of questions, forgive me if they are answered but I can't see it:

1. Can one pay in bitcoin?
2. Can the ownership of the physical [Edit: two factor] bitcoins be transferred from owner to owner without needing to redeem the coin? I.e. can I sell my Titan Bitcoins on in a few years time to another owner?

3. Is there a list of which coins from the current batch(es) are in circulation? You've sold some on eBay but I was curious about how many have now sold...

sr. member
Activity: 366
Merit: 258
I bought one. Received confirmation of shipment.  Waiting for delivery...

I just bought as well.  The price is far less than an hour of Lawyer time.  Smiley

Well, I think I got the better end of this deal.  That's very valuable info. 

I'll definitely be hiring YOU if I have to defend our business model.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
I bought one. Received confirmation of shipment.  Waiting for delivery...

I just bought as well.  The price is far less than an hour of Lawyer time.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer

I'm happy to tip for that work.  Was there any case history from the 20th or 21st century? 


Thanks for anything you can offer, I'll probably just end up sending it back to you to get one of your pieces.

There have only been a handful of cases decided on this, most were 19th century.

In the 20th Century there were:

U.S. v. Gellman, 44 F.Supp. 360 (D.C.Minn., 1942) - innocent
U.S. v. Yeatts, 639 F.2d 1186 (C.A.Ga., 1981) - guilty
U.S. v. Falvey, 676 F.2d 871 (C.A.Me., 1982) - innocent

In the 21st there is the von NotHaus case, which is not yet case law (the case is still pending, it has not yet been concluded, nor has it been evaluated for appeal).  I am confidant that von Nothaus will be found innocent as well, though his life/career has more or less been ended by the last half decade of this malicious prosecution.  His project, which began as a philanthropic effort to free money from its shackles and which effort inspired others to follow in his footsteps (including Bitcoin's wise founder) has been thwarted by this misapplication of the law and its heavy hand.

Some of the facts of the cases:

The closes set of facts to ours yielded a positive result for us:
The only case in which an individual who issued his own private currency was ever
directly charged under 18 USC 486 was U.S. v. Bogart. In Bogart, the court made
examination of the legislative intent of the Act of June 8, 1864. The Bogart court
determined that the Act was simply a counterfeiting law that prohibited private coins that
closely resembled circulating United States currency and could mislead the public (even
if such designs were original, but still misleading). Further, the Bogart court specifically
determined that a person who simply issued a private precious metal currency could not
be charged with counterfeiting under the Act of June 8, 1864, and that the Act did not
establish the new, previously unknown crime of issuing private currency.

Gellman is not very applicable and is not much precedent:
The Gellman court mentions 18 USC 486, noting that it bans the issuance of private
currency "as current money". Falvey later cites Gellman on this point. However, the
Gellman observation is really only dicta (not a matter of the decision), as the court noted that the statute was not
applicable to Gellman's alleged crime (selling slugs that could operate vending
machines). The Gellman court's discussion of 18 USC 486 involved no investigation of
the statute's legislative intent, and appears to be a simple quick reading by the court.
Gellman does not reference the prior U.S. v. Bogart, which directly contradicts Gellman
on this matter, on this matter (although, ironically, the Gellman court cites Bogart on an
unrelated matter).

This is also widely divergent set of facts, but still interesting and cites this law:
U.S. v. Yeatts involved a 1981 case where a counterfeiter, charged with attempting to
pass fraudulent historic United States gold coins, maintained that the coins were not
current money, and thus no longer fell within the purview of 18 USC 485, the sister law
to 18 USC 486. Using somewhat dubious Constitutional reasoning, the appeals court held
that, even though the coins were not current money, the law was still applicable under the
Constitution's "necessary and proper clause". Yeatts references 18 USC 486 only to note
that it defines a parallel offense to that defined in 18 USC 485 and one law did not repeal
the other.

Falvey is important with regards to legislative intent which favors us strongly:
U.S. v. Falvey looked extensively at 18 USC 486's sister law 18 USC 485. The Falvey
ruling established the important and frequently cited doctrine that a court may use
evidence of legislative history to govern a statute's reading - even if the statute's current
literal reading would be different without the legislative evidence absence. Even in the
absence of the Bogart ruling, the Falvey decision would provide direct support for using
the legislative testimony from the Act of June 8, 1964's passage to show its intent as a
simple counterfeiting law.

I also have a LOT of background on the legislative intent of this law, and its many minor modifications over the years.  If it ever comes down to you needing some expert witness, I have some experience with that as well.  We are all in this together.

As it says on the obverse crown of the Bitcoin Specie piece "VERITAS VOS LIBRABIT": the truth will set you free.
sr. member
Activity: 366
Merit: 258
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
If you are really worried about it.  There are a number of (very small) countries that will authorize it as a currency of their country for a small fee.  Then you are authorized to be making a national currency.  I've contemplated this route.  Many others have taken it, but I prefer to remain producing non-governmental private pieces at this time.

I am delighted when more folks enter "the business".  Especially folks with good ethics, and attention to quality.  I am happy to help where I can

AND, since you asked nicely....this advice cost quite a lot of legal time, so feel welcome to tip if you like.  It will go into my legal defense fund.  If "they" are going to be going after anyone, it will likely be me first and winning with a well funded defense will set a good precedent.

:

The origin of the prohibition against coin “of original design” is explained in the Annual
Report of the Director of the Mint for 1871, reprinted in the Annual Report of the Secretary of
the Treasury for 1871, Report on Finances #9 (p205-214). It provides (in brief) for the
punishment of any who make or pass counterfeit coins in any metal or alloy, in the resemblance
of those of the United States or of foreign countries; or who make or pass coins of "original
design" for the purpose of money. ... [G]reat quantities of original design were issued more than
thirty years ago... small pieces designated as “half dollars” and “quarter dollars,” with some
claim to be considered gold coins, as they really contain as much of that metal as is to be found
in common jewelry. The pieces which began to be issued in San Francisco, in 1859, and perhaps
have been coined more recently, may not have been ... pushed into circulation, but may rather
have served as playpieces or curiosities. However, they were sold at their pretended value, while
in fact the half dollar, weighing six grains on an average, and about 423-thousandths fine, was
worth eleven cents; the quarter dollar nearly in the same proportion, some pieces being actually
worth six cents. No doubt they have been imposed upon ignorant persons as real money. Their
shapes were various, some octagonal, some circular.

Case law more than a century old sustains this view:

In U.S. v Bogart, 9 Ben. 314, 24 F.Cas. 1185, 24 Int.Rev.Rec. 46, No. 14,617 (N.D.N.Y.
1878), the Court explained, “One of the Rules applicable to the offence of counterfeiting is, that
the resemblance of the spurious to the genuine coin must be such as that it might deceive a
person using ordinary caution, and a conviction cannot be had for uttering pieces of metal which
are not in the likeness or similitude of genuine coins.” (California gold).1
(These pieces deceive no one).

Another case, U.S. v Hopkins, 26 Fed. 443 (D.C. 1885), supplemented this by saying
“counterfeit coin is one made in imitation of some genuine coin. It is not necessary that the
resemblance should be exact in all respects. The resemblance is sufficient if the coins are so far
alike that the counterfeit coin is calculated to deceive a person exercising ordinary caution and
observation in the usual transactions of business, though the counterfeit would not deceive a
person who was expert or has particular experience in such matters. This rule has been more fully
applied in cases of written or printed instruments which are used in ordinary business
transactions, as prudent men are presumed to exercise reasonable caution in accepting
instruments which are evidences of contracts and obligations.” Id., at 443-444. (Emphasis
added).
(They don’t look like an American coin; don’t have the feel of an American coin and
don’t act as a coin does either on first use, or subsequent use).

And in yet another case, U.S. v Hargrave, 26 F.Cas. 164 (D.C. N.D. Ohio 1872), the
indictment contained seven counts, four of which were framed under the act of March 3, 1825 (4
Stat. 121), and three under the act of June 8, 1864 (13 Stat. 120). The main question was whether
the spurious coin in question came under either act. “It was claimed by the prosecution that it
came under both, that is: First, that it was in the similitude of the genuine coin; second, that if
considered of ‘original design,’ it was within the later act above cited; and, third, that the
question was, not whether it would deceive a person of ordinary skill and caution, but whether it was capable of, and designed to be used for deceiving the incautious and unskillful”. These (a) deceived no one; (b) would not deceive the incautious or unskillful, and (c) would not deceive a person of ordinary skill and caution.
sr. member
Activity: 366
Merit: 258

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.
you suck  beyond belief

Don't be mad just because information dispels fear.  Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative.
Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful.
I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.
wtf is wrong with you?

this is your business, issuing "new liberty 'dollars'": http://newlibertydollar.com/
this is someone who went to jail for "liberty 'dollars'": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704425804576220383673608952

you're either trying to make yourself belief the law doesnt exist so you can continue being a criminal without feeling guilty, or found some brilliant way to get around it. I'll bet on the 1st.

Do you make a career out of being wrong?

Bernard von Nothaus is not in jail.
He has never been in prison.
The misapplication of that law to his activities is not decided law.

The law exists.  It was written to prevent the gold miners in the California gold rush from making things that looked like government issued coins that were not properly adhering to the weights and measures, anti-counterfeiting.
It has absolutely nothing to do with either my, nor Nothaus nor Titan's activities, despite the nonsense put forward by the political prosecution of Nothaus for his support of Ron Paul.

Please keep up this line of nonsense.  People might care to learn the truth and I, for one, am happy to help them out.
you need to supply sources of all your claims

Or do I?  
I am perfectly OK with not convincing you of anything.  Smiley
People that seek the truth may find it easily.  
There are enough that already know.  If you are slower to learn than others, that is not my burden to bear, its yours.

In the mean time we are just bumping this thread.... bumpity bump bump

If our OP considers this all off-topic, am happy to take it elsewhere.
well with that response i'll just close this at the same point where we started:

you suck beyond belief


I appreciate a good debate. This IS pertinent to the field of physical bitcoins, so I'll chip in my two cents.  Hoepfully no one has hurt feelings here, as I'm sure the intention is to make the truth on this issue clear.

It looks like the crux of this section of U.S. law is aimed at the act of counterfeiting, either foreign or domestic currency.  The reference to foreign current money production appears to be aimed at complying with a set of global anti-counterfeiting laws.  Without that sort of clause on the books, it might be difficult for a country like China to prosecute someone in the U.S. who was counterfeiting yuan.  

However, the phrase "except as authorized by law" is vitally important.   There are a number of private mints in both the U.S. and China that produce national currency for other countries.  For example, I know for certain that the Phillipines outsources some of its currency production to a mint that operates in the U.S.  The point is that, it IS illegal to make currency in the U.S. UNLESS you're authorized to do so by the government that issues that currency.

The question then becomes, who authorizes the issuing of a decentralized currency that is not tied to any one government?  

I think, for the moment, the answer is "no one".

Thoughts?
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
I bought one. Received confirmation of shipment.  Waiting for delivery...
sr. member
Activity: 366
Merit: 258
How much per coin price?

who test this coins in practic?
any feedbacks please

i interest this

It's 1.45 BTC right now.  You can pay with fiat from our site.  http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/

I know of a few members on the forums that have bought and redeemed them.  Anyone want to share your experience?

legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
We think we've got a good method of clearing any temporary data from the cache on our printers, but I won't hesitate to say that the process can be improved and I welcome any input on how we could make it better.


don't forget to destroy the drum roller Grin

I considered burning down our offices and relocating after each production run, but after running the cost-benefit analysis...we decided against it.

Lol good laugh haha  Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
How much per coin price?

who test this coins in practic?
any feedbacks please

i interest this
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.
you suck  beyond belief

Don't be mad just because information dispels fear.  Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative.
Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful.
I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.
wtf is wrong with you?

this is your business, issuing "new liberty 'dollars'": http://newlibertydollar.com/
this is someone who went to jail for "liberty 'dollars'": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704425804576220383673608952

you're either trying to make yourself belief the law doesnt exist so you can continue being a criminal without feeling guilty, or found some brilliant way to get around it. I'll bet on the 1st.

Do you make a career out of being wrong?

Bernard von Nothaus is not in jail.
He has never been in prison.
The misapplication of that law to his activities is not decided law.

The law exists.  It was written to prevent the gold miners in the California gold rush from making things that looked like government issued coins that were not properly adhering to the weights and measures, anti-counterfeiting.
It has absolutely nothing to do with either my, nor Nothaus nor Titan's activities, despite the nonsense put forward by the political prosecution of Nothaus for his support of Ron Paul.

Please keep up this line of nonsense.  People might care to learn the truth and I, for one, am happy to help them out.
you need to supply sources of all your claims

Or do I?  
I am perfectly OK with not convincing you of anything.  Smiley
People that seek the truth may find it easily.  
There are enough that already know.  If you are slower to learn than others, that is not my burden to bear, its yours.

In the mean time we are just bumping this thread.... bumpity bump bump

If our OP considers this all off-topic, am happy to take it elsewhere.
well with that response i'll just close this at the same point where we started:

you suck beyond belief
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.
you suck  beyond belief

Don't be mad just because information dispels fear.  Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative.
Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful.
I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.
wtf is wrong with you?

this is your business, issuing "new liberty 'dollars'": http://newlibertydollar.com/
this is someone who went to jail for "liberty 'dollars'": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704425804576220383673608952

you're either trying to make yourself belief the law doesnt exist so you can continue being a criminal without feeling guilty, or found some brilliant way to get around it. I'll bet on the 1st.

Do you make a career out of being wrong?

Bernard von Nothaus is not in jail.
He has never been in prison.
The misapplication of that law to his activities is not decided law.

The law exists.  It was written to prevent the gold miners in the California gold rush from making things that looked like government issued coins that were not properly adhering to the weights and measures, anti-counterfeiting.
It has absolutely nothing to do with either my, nor Nothaus nor Titan's activities, despite the nonsense put forward by the political prosecution of Nothaus for his support of Ron Paul.

Please keep up this line of nonsense.  People might care to learn the truth and I, for one, am happy to help them out.
you need to supply sources of all your claims

Or do I?  
I am perfectly OK with not convincing you of anything.  Smiley
People that seek the truth may find it easily.  
There are enough that already know.  If you are slower to learn than others, that is not my burden to bear, its yours.

In the mean time we are just bumping this thread.... bumpity bump bump

If our OP considers this all off-topic, am happy to take it elsewhere.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.
you suck  beyond belief

Don't be mad just because information dispels fear.  Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative.
Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful.
I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.
wtf is wrong with you?

this is your business, issuing "new liberty 'dollars'": http://newlibertydollar.com/
this is someone who went to jail for "liberty 'dollars'": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704425804576220383673608952

you're either trying to make yourself belief the law doesnt exist so you can continue being a criminal without feeling guilty, or found some brilliant way to get around it. I'll bet on the 1st.

Do you make a career out of being wrong?

Bernard von Nothaus is not in jail.
He has never been in prison.
The misapplication of that law to his activities is not decided law.

The law exists.  It was written to prevent the gold miners in the California gold rush from making things that looked like government issued coins that were not properly adhering to the weights and measures, anti-counterfeiting.
It has absolutely nothing to do with either my, nor Nothaus nor Titan's activities, despite the nonsense put forward by the political prosecution of Nothaus for his support of Ron Paul.

Please keep up this line of nonsense.  People might care to learn the truth and I, for one, am happy to help them out.
you need to supply sources of all your claims
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.
you suck  beyond belief

Don't be mad just because information dispels fear.  Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative.
Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful.
I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.
wtf is wrong with you?

this is your business, issuing "new liberty 'dollars'": http://newlibertydollar.com/
this is someone who went to jail for "liberty 'dollars'": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704425804576220383673608952

you're either trying to make yourself belief the law doesnt exist so you can continue being a criminal without feeling guilty, or found some brilliant way to get around it. I'll bet on the 1st.

Do you make a career out of being wrong?

Bernard von Nothaus is not in jail.
He has never been in prison.
The misapplication of that law to his activities is not decided law.

The law exists.  It was written to prevent the gold miners in the California gold rush from making things that looked like government issued coins that were not properly adhering to the weights and measures, anti-counterfeiting.
It has absolutely nothing to do with either my, nor Nothaus nor Titan's activities, despite the nonsense put forward by the political prosecution of Nothaus for his support of Ron Paul.

Please keep up this line of nonsense.  People might care to learn the truth and I, for one, am happy to help them out.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.
you suck  beyond belief

Don't be mad just because information dispels fear.  Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative.
Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful.
I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law.

You may go FUD yourself now.
you suck  beyond belief
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
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