Topic: The NEXT generation of Physical Bitcoins... - page 2. (Read 19104 times)

Money that is not debased at about 5% per annum can not be the currency due to Gresham's Law. I ran the data since 1800s, and 5% to be seems about what society requires.

Without debasement, the rich end up owning everything. Society will not tolerate that, thus a looser form of currency always wins.

We agree on this.

So the issue is with the rate of debasement, rather than the absence of it?

As you know, it is declining asymptotically to zero, and will be annually <1% by 2032 and <0.2% by 2040.

Bitcoin has perpetual debasement, it is however, deeply under the investment growth rate.

Yes the key should expire and the person holding the coin at that time should be able to prove it by having the coin sign a transaction to transfer it to a new private key, which would be a new manufactured coin. This could be done any time after expiration on the public ledger block chain (the signing circuitry in the coin wouldn't stop functioning at expiry).

Physically it is going to be possible for someone to recover that private key I presume with considerable effort, so the denominations should be low enough that it is not worth the effort to do so. Maybe not an easy problem to solve.

P.S. Bitcoin won't survive without adding perpetual debasement. And an altcoin will overtake it if it doesn't. The reasons are explained in my November and December posts. I don't have time to re-summarize.

We've been "serious about your suggestion" long before you posted it.  
The engineering and social challenges are not insignificant.

There are finite bitcoin.
To accomplish this you either need perfect durability (unfeasible) or the ability to duplicate while maintaining uniqueness (so that a worn/destroyed piece can be recreated).  Otherwise there is loss resulting in unnecessary deflation.
There are also social consequences to accomplishing that with various solutions in consideration.

Some ideas floated among the bitcoin specie team:
Unspendable private keys could expire (and need to be recreated prior to expiry), for a functional perfect durability.  
Un-recreated private keys could be added to extend block rewards (in an alt-coin).
The mechanism for this could be a block chain registry of physical-bitcoin unspendable private keys (think namecoin).

Counterfeiting is illegal, but no one is contemplating doing that.

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Most of them.
In what country it isn't?

In what country is it illegal to distribute privately minted precious metals containing writings?

In what country is it illegal to distribute privately minted precious metals containing writings?

We're OK jumping through hoops to work with U.S. laws.  FinCEN is an agency whose main purpose is to limit organized crime activity.  I'm not saying they are GOOD necessarily, but there is a kernel in good in their charter.

Laws are always framed in the their own historical context.  The radical innovation of peer-to-peer money transfer that bitcoin represents is a brand new historical context.  Laws need to be changed to adapt to this new environment. 

I'm not angry that the laws are outdated, so much as eager to see them revised.  To each his own, though.

 

How much per coin price?
who test this coins in practic?

I wish someone would get serious about my suggestion.

Note no need to embed a battery, supply power to the embedded circuit via radio.

Not everyone needs to verify each coin, because the private key is unspendable.

EDIT: This thread is intended for brainstorming about new ways to do Physical bitcoins.  I've started a separate thread for questions about http://www.TitanBtc.com in the Marketplace section.
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Physical bitcoins are absolutely the BEST way to introduce people to the concept of bitcoins.  I've personally recruited dozens, if not hundreds, of people to the bitcoin community and by far the most effective tool in winning someone over is simply handing them a physical coin.  There's just no replacement for feeling the weight of bitcoin in your hand.

However, after years of UI/UX design for web and product launches, I know that there's no such thing as "too simple".  People need to be led gently down a path to understanding and the current generation of physical bitcoins isn't quite cutting it.  Physical bitcoins, both paper and coin, have the potential to be much more than novelty or collectible.  To realize that potential, I'm convinced that this community needs to have physical bitcoins that:

1. Look and feel like real currency

2. Have ZERO barriers to entry for newcomers

3. Require ZERO pre-existing knowledge of bitcoins to acquire, use and enjoy, and

4. Are inherently secure and impossible to counterfeit.  (Physical theft is always a danger, but that's a separate conversation.)

5. Seamlessly convert to bitcoins in your wallet with a minimum of technical knowledge required.

It's a tall order, but it's an important one to fill. Physical bitcoins serve as a valuable extension to cryptocurrencies and they're a vital bridge to the many people who have yet to embrace the idea of bitcoins.  Effectively reaching this group may allow cryptocurrencies to cross the chasm that exists between early adopters and the mainstream user.  If you have investments in bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what reduces risk and increases the return on your investment.  If you believe in the principals behind bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what opens people's eyes and brings about real, revolutionary change in our financial system.


Doug Feigelson, Mike Caldwell, Rob Kohr and others have shown us what is possible.  Thank you sincerely.  Let's build on their contributions and move forward.  What's next?  What does this next generation of physical bitcoins look like and how is it technically executed?  I'm looking for feedback from this community and I'm also looking people that are ready to design it and build it as I'm putting my personal/business resources behind this project.

Or as I proposed upthread, embedding the radio verifiable private key and marking it unspendable on the block chain (altcoins can support this feature, then Bitcoin will implement it) as I have suggested upthread. Then the coin tracks the BTC value and is reliable.