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Topic: The Objective Standards Guild - Testimonium Libertatem Iustitia - page 16. (Read 5164 times)

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
we've already established that self-styled scam busters have voted each other into DT positions, by virtue of the fact that hardly anybody customizes their trust lists.
You forgot to attach "some form of documentation" to your accusation.

it's not an accusation. it's literally how the trust system works. in fact, i'm actually encouraging people to customize their trust lists so they can vote who they want onto DT1 the same way.

unlike some of the "scam busters", i don't view including/excluding people from one's trust list as a proper basis for public accusations or red tags.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
we've already established that self-styled scam busters have voted each other into DT positions, by virtue of the fact that hardly anybody customizes their trust lists.

You forgot to attach "some form of documentation" to your accusation.

As usual, you are working overtime to confuse these legitimate arguments to serve your own goals. He is not making a negative rating over this now is he? Good job pretending as if you don't understand the argument though. Gold star.


People who aren't doing this basic level of due diligence are just on borrowed time until they are robbed and no amount of shitting out tags is going to stop them from getting stolen from.
I disagree. We can't expect every newbie to crypto to instantly be able to tell what is a scam and what isn't. Maybe in the early days when the majority of people involved in bitcoin were technically minded, but if bitcoin is going to grow and appeal to a global audience then it has to start attracting less technically literate people. I don't think it's fair to just say "Do your own research/do your due diligence" and then refuse to arm them with the tools to do so, such as warnings in the form of trust ratings. Sure, red tags won't protect everyone, and sure, there are some who will ignore them and be scammed anyway, but I don't agree with the implication that pre-emptively negative rating scammers doesn't achieve anything.

I should clarify here I am talking solely about pre-emptive ratings on obvious scammers, like the examples I gave in my previous post. In terms of the reference you make to ratings being spammed to punish people for opinions or disagreements, I am in agreement that they are entirely inappropriate.

Signal noise actual con artists can manipulate to cover their tracks and punish their detractors.
You've made this or similar statements several times. Genuine question - I'd be interested if you could point to some cases where scams were able to be pulled off because of "signal noise" in the trust system.

The idea that you are protecting these people is an illusion. Also you will notice you didn't actually address my point, and instead opted to argue a totally different point. My point is that people acting so recklessly they don't take simple precautions and do minimal amounts of research, such as reading neutral ratings, will eventually be robbed. No amount of spamming tags is going to prevent this. There is no reason that neutral ratings can't be used for warnings that don't meet the standard of evidence. This insistence that negative ratings are needed is more of a compulsive need to serve the one rating so they feel like they had an impact than serving the user base by giving a warning. You are attempting to treat the symptoms, not the cause.

You, instead of addressing this point, make some lame straw man argument that we can't expect all newbies to be able to tell what is and is not a scam, therefore, you conclude, we must maintain the status quo. Your preferred status quo doesn't give them any tools either, it just makes them dependent on being told who they shouldn't trade with, giving them a false sense of security, and enabling blind trust in false accusations.

As I already explained several times, and a point you seem to be willfully ignoring at this point, is it is not a question if it works some times. It is a question of, is the minuscule benefit it might result in, worth the very obvious abuse and conflict that results from preserving such ambiguous standards? Clearly the answer is no, but I am sure you will think of another straw man to argue.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
we've already established that self-styled scam busters have voted each other into DT positions, by virtue of the fact that hardly anybody customizes their trust lists.

You forgot to attach "some form of documentation" to your accusation.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
My favorite part of these types of threads, is it is guaranteed to get all of the most abusive clowns and sad children's party magicians to pop out of the woodwork and expose themselves.

Or masturbation with clowns.  What ever he needs to do to advocate one thing and do another.  :/
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
when I say you are in the minority, I mean DT-wise.

so you're just saying "i'm currently on DT1 and other people currently on DT1 haven't net excluded me"?

wow okay, well that's sort of a circular meaningless argument that ignores the whole point of this thread. we've already established that self-styled scam busters have voted each other into DT positions, by virtue of the fact that hardly anybody customizes their trust lists.

that's what we're trying to change. one of the primary purposes of this thread (IMO) is to say that the rest of the forum can have a vote too: you only need 10 earned merits and then you can participate and affect the default trust system by "voting" for objective/fair members and against biased/unfair members.

even people who have been wronged by DT trust abuse can help to remove their abusers from DT. one of the crucial elements is that you must include members as well since a member's trust list must include 10+ users before they can be on DT1.

so people need to do more than just exclude abusers and hope DT1 members do the same---they need to build bigger trust networks (with inclusions) so they can actually affect the DT1 lottery or be voted in themselves.

this is a numbers game. if everyone keeps refusing to customize their trust list, then nothing will change. the same people will keep voting themselves onto DT1 and perpetuating the current system.

Vires In Numeris.

i also appreciate that TECSHARE has provided some reasonable cover for people who want to include/exclude people in the OP. on this forum, some DT members have been known to use their position to publicly/privately pressure other members into changing their trust lists. this culture of intimidation (combined with fear of DT retaliation) stifles honest usage of the trust system.

perhaps OSG could allow us to create somewhat of a "united front", which DT abusers tend to enjoy, but which the abused never have the privilege of.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1827
My favorite part of these types of threads, is it is guaranteed to get all of the most abusive clowns and sad children's party magicians to pop out of the woodwork and expose themselves. Just like when they abuse the trust system to serve their own selfish goals, they can't help themselves.

Well, with this clown metaphor, I now have three earworms that I just can't shake.


The following links are not suitable for your mental health. Be warned!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30nQTgO7jZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L6KGuTr9TI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaMX0Cs5Bc4

I personally think this punishment is rather harsh for my minor transgressions. Especially the "Send in the Clowns." That one is particularly noisome. Perhaps another several month hiatus is in order...  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18587
People who aren't doing this basic level of due diligence are just on borrowed time until they are robbed and no amount of shitting out tags is going to stop them from getting stolen from.
I disagree. We can't expect every newbie to crypto to instantly be able to tell what is a scam and what isn't. Maybe in the early days when the majority of people involved in bitcoin were technically minded, but if bitcoin is going to grow and appeal to a global audience then it has to start attracting less technically literate people. I don't think it's fair to just say "Do your own research/do your due diligence" and then refuse to arm them with the tools to do so, such as warnings in the form of trust ratings. Sure, red tags won't protect everyone, and sure, there are some who will ignore them and be scammed anyway, but I don't agree with the implication that pre-emptively negative rating scammers doesn't achieve anything.

I should clarify here I am talking solely about pre-emptive ratings on obvious scammers, like the examples I gave in my previous post. In terms of the reference you make to ratings being spammed to punish people for opinions or disagreements, I am in agreement that they are entirely inappropriate.

Signal noise actual con artists can manipulate to cover their tracks and punish their detractors.
You've made this or similar statements several times. Genuine question - I'd be interested if you could point to some cases where scams were able to be pulled off because of "signal noise" in the trust system.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
My favorite part of these types of threads, is it is guaranteed to get all of the most abusive clowns and sad children's party magicians to pop out of the woodwork and expose themselves. Just like when they abuse the trust system to serve their own selfish goals, they can't help themselves.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
Code:
ad·vo·cate
Quote
a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy.

The definition does not state one should do what one advocates.  Techy is hypocritical, like Greta.

The only time he has stopped crying about how mean DT is, is when he was briefly on DT.

Maybe more masturbation will clear his head.  :/
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
if you insist on engaging in this kind of fallacious bullshit, please direct it at nutildah, who is the one actually making ridiculous claims.
I'm pretty sure I understand the context of nultidah's post quite well. You're the one extrapolating it to mean every Bitcointalk account

what did nutildah mean then, precisely? i am in the vast minority of what, exactly?

when I say you are in the minority, I mean DT-wise.

at the very least, nutildah claimed to represent the vast majority of the community. i was merely directly responding to that. (but tbh, if i'm part of the group in question, we must be talking about at least many thousands if not millions of other nobodies in the community)

it's cute how you try to contort someone else's mischaracterization and project it on me though. like i said, this kind of fallacious bullshit from you is 100% expected.

It's called reading.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
if you insist on engaging in this kind of fallacious bullshit, please direct it at nutildah, who is the one actually making ridiculous claims.
I'm pretty sure I understand the context of nultidah's post quite well. You're the one extrapolating it to mean every Bitcointalk account

what did nutildah mean then, precisely? i am in the vast minority of what, exactly?

at the very least, nutildah claimed to represent the vast majority of the community. i was merely directly responding to that. (but tbh, if i'm part of the group in question, we must be talking about at least many thousands if not millions of other nobodies in the community)

it's cute how you try to contort someone else's mischaracterization and project it on me though. like i said, this kind of fallacious bullshit from you is 100% expected.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
if you insist on engaging in this kind of fallacious bullshit, please direct it at nutildah, who is the one actually making ridiculous claims.

I'm pretty sure I understand the context of nutildah's post quite well. You're the one extrapolating it to mean every Bitcointalk account and that is indeed fallacious bullshit. Please try to avoid that.

Edit: spelling.
copper member
Activity: 2870
Merit: 2298
Point of order on alternative accounts: 

If an account is flagged legitimately as a scammer and they simply set up a new account and start with a "clean record" as it were, does this not constitute a distinct weakness in the proposal?  Under the criteria set forth in the OP, the suspicion of being an alt is not sufficient to tag the account.  Is there a chance this would enable easy whitewashing of past crimes and create an environment in which is it likely easier to defraud people in future scams?
I think suspicion is the key word in your post.

There are not many scammers that could possibly fit your description. Most of the serial scammers are tagged red and blend in with others in their business for other reasons.

In the past when a serial scammer tried to use a new account, an admin would find and tag it if it goes undetected long enough.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
Point of order on alternative accounts: 

If an account is flagged legitimately as a scammer and they simply set up a new account and start with a "clean record" as it were, does this not constitute a distinct weakness in the proposal?  Under the criteria set forth in the OP, the suspicion of being an alt is not sufficient to tag the account.  Is there a chance this would enable easy whitewashing of past crimes and create an environment in which is it likely easier to defraud people in future scams?

Great question. Let me ask you a question. What is stopping them from just returning again with another alt seconds after you tag them?
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483

direct response to:

you are in the vast minority here.

nutildah is claiming to speak for the vast majority. i am not.

countless people
countless other people (like me)

"too many to be counted" was accurate. i can't go back 7 years and count all the people i've seen ruined by trust abuse---that's insane. nor can i estimate the number of people who would rather keep their mouth shut (for fear of DT retaliation) rather than speak out against abuse. (i can only say i was one of those people for many years)

millions of board members

nutildah claims to speak for the vast majority. i merely pointed out the fact that he is attempting to speak for millions of members, which is ridiculous.

source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=mlist;sort=realName;start=0
For someone who claims to be against "creating more drama" you sure don't mind the dramatic effect. Why not "billions" or "trillions"?

thanks for staying true to form and deleting all context so you can argue against straw men.

if you insist on engaging in this kind of fallacious bullshit, please direct it at nutildah, who is the one actually making ridiculous claims.
legendary
Activity: 3724
Merit: 3063
Leave no FUD unchallenged
Point of order on alternative accounts: 

If an account is flagged legitimately as a scammer and they simply set up a new account and start with a "clean record" as it were, does this not constitute a distinct weakness in the proposal?  Under the criteria set forth in the OP, the suspicion of being an alt is not sufficient to tag the account.  Is there a chance this would enable easy whitewashing of past crimes and create an environment in which is it likely easier to defraud people in future scams?
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
vast majority of board members
countless people
countless other people (like me)
millions of board members

For someone who claims to be against "creating more drama" you sure don't mind the dramatic effect. Why not "billions" or "trillions"?
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
The only places with preemptive policing are totalitarian governments where individuals have little to no freedoms.
What if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck?
I've tagged many accounts like this one. They spam their scam because people keep falling for it. Do you agree on tagging those before a victim complains about this particular user and website? One could argue it's an innocent new account that truely "provides a unique opportunity", but I've been around long enough to go with the duck approach.

Unfortunately not everyone is reasonable and observant as you. Also you don't need to use your tagging activities as a form of ego masturbation because you are not emotionally a sad child that needs to get their self value from lording over others.

The question is not if the tags are some times correct or not, the question is, is the benefit worth the the cost of opening up an ambiguous method of trust system abuse that itself can help protect and conceal scams. Most people don't have the ability, time, or expertise to tell the difference, and that leaves people just taking the word of the accuser at face value regardless of the validity of the accusation.


On one hand I agree that there are far too many frivolous ratings being sent. Ratings based on opinions or because of arguments, because of a clash of personalities, because of differing idea or views, trolling, and so forth, are both inappropriate and counter productive. They cheapen the entire point of the trust system, and serve more as a punishment against the person rather than a useful indicator of trustworthiness.

However, as Loyce has pointed out above, there are plenty of examples of accounts being correctly red tagged without yet having stolen anything or violated any contracts. If your entire ICO is plagiarized, then you are not a legitimate project. If you are advertising impossible ROIs, then you are not a legitimate project. If you are asking for users to enter their seed, enter their private keys, deposit before they are allowed to withdraw, and so on, then you are a scammer. I disagree that we should be letting these users freely peddle their scams when we have the ability to pre-emptively tag them.

I am sure Mao killed lots of bad people that were criminals. No one says, "there are examples of him correctly killing people that deserved it", because the problem is all the collateral damage and innocents caught up in it. Again, the question is not if people are correct some times or even most of the time. The question is, is the damage created by allowing such an arbitrary standard worth the minimal amount of impact the "correct" ratings have? I don't think so.

People who aren't doing this basic level of due diligence are just on borrowed time until they are robbed and no amount of shitting out tags is going to stop them from getting stolen from. Also doing so creates a false sense of security that the forum is moderated protected against such things. Then there are the people who use it to punish people bringing their own crimes to light and to discredit those accusations. Also the negative rating spam effectively dilutes the value of leaving a negative, because it is so common people learn to disregard it. All this ends up being is signal noise. Signal noise actual con artists can manipulate to cover their tracks and punish their detractors.


...

It's helpful, especially to newbies, or at least it was more so before the flags, but people should be responsible for their own money I guess. I honestly don't know whether it would be worth just getting rid of negative feedback for all the drama that's involved with it, but it would lead to a lot more people getting scammed but that's the compromise.

Anyway, I partially agree about the objective standards, but there's no getting around the fact that some subjectivity is going to have to creep in somewhere.  It always does and there's no getting around it.

Unless you can somehow make all mods part of a hive mind then there's always going to be difference of opinion in enforcing the rules, all you can do is enforce them to the best of your ability, but one person may think someone is trolling whereas the other doesn't. Some people think their posts are on topic when they're clearly not and when there's humans involved in either scenario you're going to get differences of opinion.

This is exactly why I am advocating for an objective standard of evidence of theft, violation of contractual agreement, or violation of applicable laws before rating. IMO this is the last possible way to salvage the tagging system beyond just scrapping negatives entirely. I warned Theymos leaving so much room for ambiguity would mean the failure of the system, but he was intent in his belief that it would work.

The objective standards I am referring to are meant to apply to negative ratings. The forum rules are usually less ambiguous, but that is another issue. Perhaps all the mods could get Borg implants?



I would also like to know who gets to decide what counts as an "objective standard".

You know facts. Transaction IDs. Receipts. Tracking numbers. Documentation. I know it is a hard concept.



Clown music.

I left it up there because I knew if I just erased it you Bozonians would try to claim I was hiding something. Serves me right for making appropriate adjustments. I should know better. Like I have said before, there is no road to redemption with you people, it doesn't matter what I do you will invent some story around it to spin it to attack your targets. And you pretend to wonder why I am so obstinate and resistant to pretty much anything you say. I am just so unreasonable!

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
You quoted and re-quoted the word "proactive" -- this means taking action before people have actually been scammed.

you're conveniently ignoring the part where "scam busting" should require the overwhelming consensus of the community.

there is obviously no overwhelming consensus behind you, hence the never-ending and vitriolic fighting on the reputation board. you guys are very clearly "creating more drama, division, paranoia, and tribalism than the possible scam-avoidance benefit is worth." (-theymos)

You and TS don't have to approve of it, but you are in the vast minority here.

good luck proving that, lol. a handful of self-proclaimed "scam busters" on the reputation board does not represent the vast majority of board members.  Roll Eyes

the vast majority of board members neglect to use their trust list (perhaps out of ignorance, perhaps because they think it's pointless when there is already an existing power structure, perhaps out of fear of retribution). that doesn't give you the right to speak for all those people! this situation is just a holdover from the original DT system since hardly anyone utilizes trust lists. i'm hoping we can encourage others to speak up. (if only with their trust lists)

i've been around a lot longer than many of these "scam busters". i have avoided doing business on bitcointalk all these years for 2 reasons:

1. going back to 2013, i've seen countless people run off the forum by unjustified trust abuse and public attacks
2. the forum's general tolerance of doxxing

i've ignored the reputation board and neglected my trust list until very recently for those reasons too. countless other people (like me) have opinions on these matters but do not share them, for obvious reasons.

props to TECSHARE for consistent willingness to speak out against rampant abuse. most people in his position would just disappear from the forum in the face of such concerted attacks by abusive DT members.  if not for him, i wouldn't be here---i'd be staying silent for fear of retribution from DT. (unsurprisingly, i've already had multiple of you self-styled DT "scam busters" arbitrarily publicly attack me (unprovoked) after starting to share my opinions in "reputation" last month. i have no doubt this will continue)

yet if i weren't in this thread today (or on the reputation board last month) arguing my views, nutildah & co would be claiming that i was part of the "vast majority" supporting his scam busting. obviously nothing could be further from the truth!

see how you wrongfully take ownership of millions of board members' opinions by claiming you have their support? you don't. a handful of people who are active in meta/reputation trading trust inclusions does not translate to overwhelming support of the community!

Seems that if are short of court-produced documentation, it could potentially be a highly subjective matter.

it is impossible to entirely remove subjectivity from human matters. we aren't gods. stop using that as a basis to argue that we shouldn't have any standards at all.

TECSHARE is simply encouraging us to move away from a system with zero standards, towards one with more objective standards.

will it achieve perfection? no. will there still be drama as long as red tags exist? yes. these aren't good reasons to stifle progress towards a better system with less trust abuse.
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 15
There would still exist a sensible credible and valuable warning for people that directly and clearly look to be attempting or setting up a scam.
I would be in complete agreement with this, but I don't think this is what TECSHARE is proposing. Without putting words in his mouth, he seems to be arguing for not tagging anyone until after a scam is committed:

The only places with preemptive policing are totalitarian governments where individuals have little to no freedoms. This isn't something we should be emulating no matter how much you jerk yourself off about how great you are and convince yourself you are stopping so many scams. You aren't stopping shit and this behavior is self serving.

Without Tecshare commenting I'm not sure.

But where people or ico's are placing members in direct financial danger then It would be pre-emptive to call then scammers. However, it would not be pre-emptive to place a warning that says they are posing a direct financial danger. That is objective, if they are asking members to enter their private keys.

Removing all subjectivity as type 2 and 3 flags pretty much do, solve that huge list of insoluble problems that are hugely damaging to the forum. This is a huge positive.

However, they do not offer any protection against those that are attempting to scam or setting up for a scam. Type 1 flags offer the potential four an optimal solution to that. Behaviors that strongly and clearly are asking or instructing members to place themselves in a highly vulnerable position. Then that is a clearly definable and valid reason they should have type 1 flag.

We should view this as more of a huge reduction in subjectivity. Or rather a drastic increase in accuracy and credibility.

It is a win win. You solve all of the insoluble damaging problems and increase the quality, accuracy and credibility of the trust system.

It is imho not essential to bring it down to a personal level and that is long term not useful. If the system is not wide open to subjectivity and it is not possible to act irresponsibly or abuse it for personal disputes. Then most of the problems we have now vanish

TS suggesting moving to the flagging system is being detailed by speculations on his own personal motivations. This is irrelevant.  Regardless of who you are and what your agenda is, you will be held accountable and held to the same standards as everyone else.

All this searching back through red trust histories to see if someone ever left a frivolous tag to debunk his core suggestion is bogus. If nobody has a perfect tagging record then you can only select those that are least frivolous. This is why I don't think you need to focus on that too much as again it will be contentious and consensus will not be possible.

Consensus only needs be reached that you want the most net positive or optimal solution for the forum going forward.

I support rhe aim of this thread and will join. I think just garnering support for a move to the flagging and greatly reduced subjectivity is better than trying to reach consensus on a precise trust list. The list is far less important if The system ensures responsible and reliable warnings.




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