The PATRIOT Act comes to cryptocurrency

Abiky

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Quote from: franky1 on November 26, 2023, 05:26:11 PM

if using DEX for real world fiat(meaning bank deposits not stable coins) be warned.. if you or the other users of DEX you trade with may be doing ALOT of trades via their bank account but under the guise of personal payments. banks will see these people as operating a money service business and will request they formalise as a MSB and do the compliance or stop operating. they will ask for explanations for all the payments.

this has been the case with localbitcoins.com users years ago. and look what happened to most of those traders

That's the disadvantage of using Fiat. It leaves a trail that quickly helps governments obtain your true identity. Avoiding banks altogether would be the way to go. Unfortunately, the world is still stuck with the Fiat standard. The vast majority of salaries are paid in Fiat, while most merchants and/or businesses accept only Fiat currencies as payment method. If this keeps up, we will never be able to live a truly-anonymous life with crypto.

Fortunately, not all hope is lost. As long as decentralization wins, it will be difficult (if not impossible) for governments to enforce regulatory action. This new "PATRIOT Act" by the US government is a blatant attempt to increase surveillance/control over centralized exchanges. It won't have any effect over DEXs, P2P trading platforms, nor non-custodial mixers. Who knows how crypto (especially Bitcoin) will fare in the future?

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Quote from: Abiky on November 26, 2023, 08:43:38 AM

All we have left are DEXs and P2P exchanges. You will end up paying a higher premium by using these alternatives, but it's worth it. Especially when you don't need to provide your personal info to use them. If governments' efforts are rendered useless, they might "ban" crypto altogether. There's no reason to be concerned about this, as long as decentralization wins in the long run. Wink

if using DEX for real world fiat(meaning bank deposits not stable coins) be warned.. if you or the other users of DEX you trade with may be doing ALOT of trades via their bank account but under the guise of personal payments. banks will see these people as operating a money service business and will request they formalise as a MSB and do the compliance or stop operating. they will ask for explanations for all the payments.

this has been the case with localbitcoins.com users years ago. and look what happened to most of those traders

Abiky

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Quote from: l8orre on November 24, 2023, 07:16:46 PM

I have not read the full thread yet, and will catch up on this over the next few days.

In the meantime, I can't refrain from mentioning that there is an impressive number of privacy oriented projects in the crypto space, which is the way to go.

Including DEXes, SC platforms, mesh networks, naming systems, etc.

Currently I am wondering if this is a forum for a real discussion or if there are Maxi Mullahs already adapting their heresy Fatwahs against all that is not BTCBTC that may appear in the discussion...

There may be an impressive number of privacy-oriented projects, but they're still the minority. We can blame mainstream governments for that. Their misinformation and false propaganda have led people to believe that obfuscating their transactions is a very bad thing. Shutting down centralized mixers, and going after non-custodial mixers by sanctioning it tells us governments really don't want people to get true financial freedom and privacy. By enforcing KYC across all centralized exchanges, they hope to control the on/off ramps between the crypto and Fiat worlds.

All we have left are DEXs and P2P exchanges. You will end up paying a higher premium by using these alternatives, but it's worth it. Especially when you don't need to provide your personal info to use them. If governments' efforts are rendered useless, they might "ban" crypto altogether. There's no reason to be concerned about this, as long as decentralization wins in the long run. Wink

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I have not read the full thread yet, and will catch up on this over the next few days.

In the meantime, I can't refrain from mentioning that there is an impressive number of privacy oriented projects in the crypto space, which is the way to go.

Including DEXes, SC platforms, mesh networks, naming systems, etc.

Currently I am wondering if this is a forum for a real discussion or if there are Maxi Mullahs already adapting their heresy Fatwahs against all that is not BTCBTC that may appear in the discussion...

Lucius

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 23, 2023, 03:35:25 AM

Quote from: Lucius on November 21, 2023, 11:07:12 AM

Of course, there is always the possibility of face-to-face trading, but that brings with it some other risks that many do not agree to.

I hear this repeated a lot on the forum, yet I've never had a single issue with face to face trades. As long as you are using a proper P2P exchange such as Bisq to set up the trade and not just finding some random scammer via social media, and you take standard security measures, then you are no more at risk from a face to face trade than you are any time you go out in public:

I think it also depends on the country you live in, and not only because of the mentality of the people, but also the total population. It may sound strange, but it is not the same if you live in a country with 300+ million people or in a country with 100 times less people where it is much harder to protect your privacy. The higher the price of BTC, the more people are willing to do anything to get it easily.

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Quote from: Lucius on November 21, 2023, 11:07:12 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 20, 2023, 10:16:51 PM

@Lucius. The government has always been fear mongerers to control and manipulate the population under jurisdiction. They do not car about the truth or what is real because behind this there is an agenda to gain more power and control over you and me.

Also, this is not about whether the politicians put bitcoin and altcoins under one basket, this is about the government's agenda to remove self custody from any type of digital currency. If a government cannot control a type of money then the government cannot control the people that uses them.

Of course, it is always about controlling the masses, and if you control the central mechanism on which you have made them dependent, then the majority behave as if they are in the collective consciousness. Any deviation from the usual ways of behavior puts you on the black list and increased supervision of Big Brother. Resistance is futile is obviously the message they want to send, but it never worked and it won't even now.

This is how they might also do it and I have said this many times in my threads. The government in America and much of the world will support and make their favored centralized stablecoin issuers to be their bridge on controlling how much inflows and outflows enter or leave the cryptospace. This will also give them the power to do something similar to what Tether has done. Freeze assets of their holders over allegations without proof.

Crypto firm Tether said on Monday that it had frozen $225 million worth of its cryptocurrency which it said had been linked to a human trafficking group in Southeast Asia.

Source https://www.reuters.com/technology/crypto-firm-tether-says-it-has-frozen-225-mln-linked-human-trafficking-2023-11-20/

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Quote from: Lucius on November 21, 2023, 11:07:12 AM

However, when it comes to trading, regardless of all the decentralized options, we still have the "problem" that we have to use centralized services when it comes to the deposit/withdraw of fiat funds

You definitely don't have to. I've traded bitcoin exclusively peer to peer for years, and it is easier today than it has ever been before.

Quote from: Lucius on November 21, 2023, 11:07:12 AM

Of course, there is always the possibility of face-to-face trading, but that brings with it some other risks that many do not agree to.

I hear this repeated a lot on the forum, yet I've never had a single issue with face to face trades. As long as you are using a proper P2P exchange such as Bisq to set up the trade and not just finding some random scammer via social media, and you take standard security measures, then you are no more at risk from a face to face trade than you are any time you go out in public:

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 21, 2022, 08:08:10 AM

You are really at no more risk than you are most of the time you go out in public. Anyone on the street could be a criminal out to rob you. People carry cash, bank cards, a mobile phone, jewellery, keys for their car, keys for their house (with their address probably visible on some piece of ID in their wallet), tablets, laptops, and all manner of valuable objects. Lots of things which are far more valuable than a few hundred bucks of bitcoin.

Every time you use an ATM, someone could be waiting with a weapon to relieve of your cash. Every time you step out of a store, someone could rob you of whatever you just bought. Every time you park your car, someone could beat you up for your keys and ride off. A face to face bitcoin trade is really no different.

Take standard precautions and you will be quite safe:

Choose a highly rated trading partner
Don't share unnecessary personal info
Obscure your appearance (easily done in this time of face masks for everyone)
Arrange your meeting during the day in a busy public location - choose somewhere with CCTV if you want, like a large shopping mall
Bring a friend with you
Only bring the amount of money (bitcoin or fiat) that you are trading
If legal in your jurisdiction, bring some kind of weapon for self defense

Quote from: Abiky on November 22, 2023, 08:22:21 AM

In some sense, CEXs are safer because you're dealing with a "trusted entity".

Remind me what is "trusted" about CEXs, exactly? Literally every single one has experienced data leaks or hacks in the past. Dozens have exit scammed. Dozens have gone bankrupt. Dozens more were simply corrupt from the start. More have shutdown. More are currently be fined billions of dollars for illegal behavior. All have arbitrarily locked accounts and frozen coins. They've been caught insider trading, stealing your money, dumping their own bags on their users, listing scams, running fractional reserve, and more. And if you are lucky enough to avoid all of that, you get absolutely ripped off with outrageous fees.

I trust any one of my peer to peer trading partners exponentially more than I trusted the sheer greed of centralized exchanges.

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Quote from: Abiky on November 22, 2023, 08:22:21 AM

There's the risk of getting scammed/robbed by an unknown person. In some sense, CEXs are safer because you're dealing with a "trusted entity". I guess that's why most people prefer a CEX over a P2P exchange.

What if you deposit FIAT, buy BTC and then the CEX blocks withdrawals? You take this risk, even if you don't realise it you depend on CEX being honorable, which is not always the case.

Abiky

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Quote from: NotATether on November 21, 2023, 08:13:17 AM

At this point, if you want to trade between two cryptocurrencies, use a DEX. No reason to use CEX for this unless you're chasing pennies.

Onramp - offramp is a bit more difficult though. From what I've gathered, people use Telegram P2P channels for these kind of dealings (gee, this makes me miss pre-2019 Localbitcoins even more).

The thing is not everyone is willing to buy/sell crypto P2P using Fiat. There's the risk of getting scammed/robbed by an unknown person. In some sense, CEXs are safer because you're dealing with a "trusted entity". I guess that's why most people prefer a CEX over a P2P exchange. For crypto-to-crypto trades, DEXs are a no-brainer. They might have a slight learning curve and lower liquidity than CEXs, but at least they don't require ID verification (KYC) to use them.

I really hope we find a safe and reliable way to exchange crypto and Fiat in the long run. Once that problem is solved, there would be no need to use CEXs at all. Tighter regulations = more decentralization and less criminal activity. Who knows what the future holds for the entire crypto/Blockchain industry?

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 20, 2023, 10:16:51 PM

@Lucius. The government has always been fear mongerers to control and manipulate the population under jurisdiction. They do not car about the truth or what is real because behind this there is an agenda to gain more power and control over you and me.

Also, this is not about whether the politicians put bitcoin and altcoins under one basket, this is about the government's agenda to remove self custody from any type of digital currency. If a government cannot control a type of money then the government cannot control the people that uses them.

Of course, it is always about controlling the masses, and if you control the central mechanism on which you have made them dependent, then the majority behave as if they are in the collective consciousness. Any deviation from the usual ways of behavior puts you on the black list and increased supervision of Big Brother. Resistance is futile is obviously the message they want to send, but it never worked and it won't even now.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 21, 2023, 09:52:59 AM

~snip~
We have the biggest selection of good peer to peer services that we've ever had, and these services have more features and more volume than they've ever had. https://kycnot.me/?type=exchange. It's never been easier to trade bitcoin and fiat pairs in a safe peer to peer manner.

Maybe Patriot and similar initiatives are actually doing us a favor and pushing Bitcoin in the direction of greater decentralization? The list is really getting bigger and the good news is that more and more people are using such services. However, when it comes to trading, regardless of all the decentralized options, we still have the "problem" that we have to use centralized services when it comes to the deposit/withdraw of fiat funds, and all these services are mostly under the supervision of state institutions and must report every suspicious transaction.

Of course, there is always the possibility of face-to-face trading, but that brings with it some other risks that many do not agree to.

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Quote from: NotATether on November 21, 2023, 08:13:17 AM

From what I've gathered, people use Telegram P2P channels for these kind of dealings (gee, this makes me miss pre-2019 Localbitcoins even more).

This sounds like an awful idea. Telegram is a haven for scams and scammers. Indeed, using social media of any kind to set up trades with complete strangers is incredibly risky and I would avoid at all costs (even if I didn't already avoid social media like the plague).

We have the biggest selection of good peer to peer services that we've ever had, and these services have more features and more volume than they've ever had. https://kycnot.me/?type=exchange. It's never been easier to trade bitcoin and fiat pairs in a safe peer to peer manner.

NotATether

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Quote from: Jon_Hodl on November 19, 2023, 06:35:50 AM

Yup. things are heating up. The travel rule is already in action in the UK. Exchanges have already started seizing bitcoin and crypto deposits if users are unable to verify the source of funds.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinrivers/2023/08/31/not-your-bitcoin-uk-crypto-firms-will-now-be-forced-to-seize-some-inbound-payments/
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/10/26/uk-lawmakers-pass-bill-to-help-seize-illicit-crypto/

Cliche, but don't use centralized exchanges! They always go down, and when they don't go down, they seize your crypto for one reason or another.

Quote from: Abiky on November 21, 2023, 07:31:34 AM

Luckily for us, we have DEXs and P2P trading platforms to get in-and-out of crypto without KYC. The only downside is that these alternatives have lower liquidity than their centralized counterparts. You'd also be paying a small premium. But it's worth it considering that your identity and transaction info will be safe from the hands of the government. Believe me, things are going to get worse in the long run with the approval of spot ETFs. It will concentrate the supply of major cryptocurrencies into the hands of a few (mainly institutional investment companies). This means the crypto market will become more centralized in the future. As long as we have decentralized alternatives, nothing should be able to stop the revolution. Just my thoughts Grin

At this point, if you want to trade between two cryptocurrencies, use a DEX. No reason to use CEX for this unless you're chasing pennies.

Onramp - offramp is a bit more difficult though. From what I've gathered, people use Telegram P2P channels for these kind of dealings (gee, this makes me miss pre-2019 Localbitcoins even more).

Abiky

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Quote from: Jon_Hodl on November 19, 2023, 06:35:50 AM

Yup. things are heating up. The travel rule is already in action in the UK. Exchanges have already started seizing bitcoin and crypto deposits if users are unable to verify the source of funds.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinrivers/2023/08/31/not-your-bitcoin-uk-crypto-firms-will-now-be-forced-to-seize-some-inbound-payments/
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/10/26/uk-lawmakers-pass-bill-to-help-seize-illicit-crypto/

When you consider that the FCC just voted to takeover all of the internet infrastructure in the US, it's not looking good for bitcoin use in the coming future. The war on Bitcoin is here and it's just getting started.

I hope we can all hang on until the next halving and the next price pump is enough for us to achieve exit velocity and push bitcoin adoption into the early majority phase.

As long as we all keep stacking and moving to cold storage, we should make it but things will get rough.

We knew from day one this was going to happen. After all, governments don't want to lose power/control over people. By introducing these restrictions, they are hoping to minimize crypto's (particularly Bitcoin) dominance in the mainstream world. Blocking deposits by being unable to verify the source of funds is frustrating to say the least. It will make newcomers' lives much more difficult.

Luckily for us, we have DEXs and P2P trading platforms to get in-and-out of crypto without KYC. The only downside is that these alternatives have lower liquidity than their centralized counterparts. You'd also be paying a small premium. But it's worth it considering that your identity and transaction info will be safe from the hands of the government. Believe me, things are going to get worse in the long run with the approval of spot ETFs. It will concentrate the supply of major cryptocurrencies into the hands of a few (mainly institutional investment companies). This means the crypto market will become more centralized in the future. As long as we have decentralized alternatives, nothing should be able to stop the revolution. Just my thoughts Grin

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Quote from: Lucius on November 19, 2023, 10:20:01 AM

I really wonder how those who claim that terrorism is financed with Bitcoin react when the company whose services they use tells them that this is not the case?

They only hear what they want to hear. Blockchain analysis companies tell them that bitcoin is financing terrorism? Well then, we better clamp down on any and all bitcoin use which isn't entirely inside our centralized exchanges where we can surveil and censor everyone. Blockchain analysis companies tell them that privacy devs deserve to go to jail? Well then, better throw the entire legal weight of the government at someone for simply writing some open source code. Blockchain analysis companies reveal in court that their entire system is completely made up and has absolutely zero proven methods and absolutely zero evidence behind it whatsoever? Oh, we'll just ignore that bit. Blockchain analysis companies reveal that their initial claims about terrorist financing were in fact completely fabricated and not at all accurate? Lalalalala I can't hear you! Roll Eyes

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@Lucius. The government has always been fear mongerers to control and manipulate the population under their jurisdiction. They do not care about the truth or what is real because behind this there is an agenda to gain more power and control over you and me.

Also, this is not about whether the politicians put bitcoin and altcoins under one basket, this is about the government's agenda to remove self custody from any type of digital currency. If a government cannot control a type of money then the government cannot control the people that uses them.

Lucius

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 18, 2023, 08:40:38 PM

Agreed, it is nothing new and all these allegations of terrorist funding are only allegations without attempting to back them with proof. Also, Chainalysis has already declared that terrorist funding through the use of bitcoin has been overstated. However, my argument is this will not stop the government and the mainstream media from using terrorist funding as their next big storyline to make everyone fearful. Fud has always been something the government uses to trick ignorant people into supporting their oppressive campaigns very much similar to the war on drugs scam.

I really wonder how those who claim that terrorism is financed with Bitcoin react when the company whose services they use tells them that this is not the case? The problem is that the average politician usually knows about the term "cryptocurrency", where he puts Bitcoin and all altcoins in the same basket, and demands the same sanctions for all.

I remember that there was a lot of talk about how the cartels use Bitcoin to smuggle drugs from South America more easily, although even today, as in the time of Escobar, the vast majority still use the good old US$, which is of course much safer than Bitcoin transactions (of course when it comes to anonymity).

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Yup. things are heating up. The travel rule is already in action in the UK. Exchanges have already started seizing bitcoin and crypto deposits if users are unable to verify the source of funds.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinrivers/2023/08/31/not-your-bitcoin-uk-crypto-firms-will-now-be-forced-to-seize-some-inbound-payments/
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/10/26/uk-lawmakers-pass-bill-to-help-seize-illicit-crypto/

When you consider that the FCC just voted to takeover all of the internet infrastructure in the US, it's not looking good for bitcoin use in the coming future. The war on Bitcoin is here and it's just getting started.

I hope we can all hang on until the next halving and the next price pump is enough for us to achieve exit velocity and push bitcoin adoption into the early majority phase.

As long as we all keep stacking and moving to cold storage, we should make it but things will get rough.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: Lucius on November 17, 2023, 06:21:55 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 15, 2023, 10:41:59 PM

~snip~
In any case, similar to your ideas, terrorist funding will be the next big storyline that will be used against the cryptospace.

Isn't the financing of terrorism through Bitcoin a story that has been going on for years, mostly from the US media? It's nothing new, it's just taking advantage of the moment when such stories become relevant again, because it should be noted that the most powerful intelligence organizations in the world failed to prevent terrorists from carrying out such a massive attack, for which they had obviously been preparing for years. I wonder how terrorists were financed before there was Bitcoin?

Quote from: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/18/technology/terrorists-bitcoin.html

SAN FRANCISCO — Hamas, the militant Palestinian group, has been designated a terrorist organization by Western governments and some others and has been locked out of the traditional financial system. But this year its military wing has developed an increasingly sophisticated campaign to raise money using Bitcoin.

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/cryptocurrencies-and-terrorist-financing-risk-hold-panic
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1096851.pdf

Agreed, it is nothing new and all these allegations of terrorist funding are only allegations without attempting to back them with proof. Also, Chainalysis has already declared that terrorist funding through the use of bitcoin has been overstated. However, my argument is this will not stop the government and the mainstream media from using terrorist funding as their next big storyline to make everyone fearful. Fud has always been something the government uses to trick ignorant people into supporting their oppressive campaigns very much similar to the war on drugs scam.

Reports of tens of millions of dollars in crypto going to fund Palestinian operations in Israel are likely “overstated,” Chainalysis said. The forensics outfit published a blog post arguing that flows of crypto financing to Hamas and affiliated groups have become inflated far beyond reality. While acknowledging that it was crucial to stop any financing of terror through crypto, Chainalysis said it was also important to understand how such funding actually works, lest it lead to misconceptions.

Source https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/10/19/hamas-crypto-funding-likely-overstated-chainalysis/

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 15, 2023, 06:58:10 AM

Miners don't set consensus: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_is_not_ruled_by_miners

Further, mining pools are not a single entity. F2Pool, for example, does not own or operate all its hash power, or even a majority of its hash power. Miners are individuals, businesses, and other entities around the world, which collaboratively point their hash power at a pool in order to simplify the mining process and smooth out their earnings. If a pool is bought over by the government and starts censoring transactions, then the miners who are mining with that pool are free to switch to another pool, and indeed are incentivized to do so since by staying with their censoring pool they will be earning less since they will be deliberately excluding some high fee paying transactions.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've thought it was the miners who were in complete control of the Bitcoin blockchain. I'm glad nodes also have a say on the future direction of the project. With a balance of power between nodes and miners, Bitcoin can remain decentralized forever.

I guess it's safe to say the cryptocurrency is truly-unstoppable. Governments know this, so they've resorted to regulating centralized exchanges with the hopes of putting everything "under control". Illegal activities can be reduced thanks to strict regulations. As long as decentralization wins, there should be nothing to worry about. Who knows if BTC outlasts many of the coins we know and love today? Cheesy

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Quote from: Lucius on November 18, 2023, 06:26:31 AM

I don't think that their current surveillance was unable to prevent what is currently happening in Israel or what happened in the US in the past, but that some things simply had to happen in order to justify all the wars that were fought in the past and which are being conducted today.

Of course, it is a win-win situation for those who want even stronger surveillance, because the "failure" enabled an open reckoning with those with whom they want to settle, and at the same time, human rights and their privacy will fall a few steps lower.

Please don't say that, they'll label you as a "conspiracy theorist". Roll Eyes

Governments always care about their citizens, their rights, their freedom. Right? Grin

Topic: The PATRIOT Act comes to cryptocurrency (Read 2048 times)